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The T 
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 Topic: Headphones and amps...
Posted: May 31 2011 at 00:59 |
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I hope someone here can answer a few questions since headphone forums are too full of audiophiles who describe things in inexact terms. I love headphones. I do most of my music listening via headphones. I used to have a regular sharp mini component with a pair of on-ear bose cans. They did ok but then I bough some sennheisers hd 380 (actually aimed at the dj crowd; was the only thing I could buy at work) and they showed me the difference between sh*tty fake bose sound and real sound. Then I changed the source for a denon dm38 mini-hifi and things improved even further (though there's an annoying hissing noise in the headphone out playing cds that's almost unbearable). I decided to try even better headphones going open this time (instead of closed headphones) and I settled for the senn's hd 650. I haven't received them yet. Now, everyone says they will achieve full potential using a headphone amp. I don't have money to spend on a headphone amp. Is it that necessary? Does it make such a difference with high impedance headphones? Due to the annoying hiss, and because it has a headphone out with a buffered amplifier, i bought a marantz cd5004 cd player, because I'm sick of the annoying hiss of the denon and because this seems to solve the headphone problem at least partially. It's still no dedicated headphone amp. Is it really that big of a difference with headphones with amps?
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oliverstoned
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Posted: May 31 2011 at 03:25 |
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I've owned HD600 and HD 650 and first i must say that i much prefer HD600 which is more balanced and musical, it has a fantastic midrange and highs, very natural whereas the 650 goes further at both extremes but is veiled in the midrange and has an overall less natural sound. This said, the 650 remains a good headphone in the absolute;
It indeed requires an AC powered amp (portable amp will not give you the full potential, far from it) and a real good one that will be expensive. To plug directly on the headphone stage of a CD player (weak headphone output on all levels), i'd recommend an HD25, as usual, the one with the cooper cable version to be precise.
I can recommend an amp that will give you the full potential of your 650's, but it's out of your budget: Sugden "Le Bijou".
To sum up, it's really day and night, with or without amp.
A 650 without real amplification will give an anemic sound, i much much
prefer an HD 25 in this case.
It's the classic mistake, like buying high end speakers and not having a decent system to drive it, you end up with nothing decent.
There will be no dynamic and you'll be dispointed thinking that people exagerate when they rave about Senn HD6XX HPs whereas the problem comes from the lack of amplification.
For a little more money, i'd buy instead a RSA Mustang P51 portable amp, an HD25 (cooper cable version) and a (cheap) mini/mini Cardas Cable
so if you already have an Ipod, you'll end up with an excellent portable setup and a decent indoor setup for music (that will work BETTER than the 650 without amp, whatever the source) and -why not- for movies from your DVD player (you'd have to add a decent mini/RCA cable for this option).
Too bad you did not asked before...
On the bright side, the Marantz is a nice budget little player.
Edited by oliverstoned - May 31 2011 at 04:52
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: May 31 2011 at 11:38 |
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Since Oliver didn't really answer you on that, no, it's not necessary, but yes, it will make a huge difference to use an amp for your headphone. Not all amps will make it sound a way that you appreciate, which is why as with most things the "try before you buy" rule comes into effect.
Even something for a few hundred dollars can make a huge difference. A good site to find out which amps people like to use for particular headphone models is head-fi.org
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Dean
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Posted: May 31 2011 at 12:41 |
Quick answer: You do need a dedicated headphone amplifier to drive the HD650's from the Marantz CD5004 - the output of the Marantz is 18mW into 32 ohms - the HD650 are 300 ohms - basically you do not have enough voltage to drive the headphones and the maximum power you can feed into them from the Marantz is 1.9mW. [this means that the HD650's will be three times quieter than your HD380's when plugged into the Marantz]
However, you do not need a dedicated headphone amp - any amplifier with a headphone jack will suffice, you can even use your Denon DM38 as a headphone amp in the interim (just plug the CD player into the AUX in phono sockets at the rear).
Personally I would advice against the RSA Mustang P-51 Amp (which at $375 is not exactly what you would call "budget"), because it is a portable amp so needs batteries - and AC powered amp is better suited to your set-up, and will be a lot more versatile in the long-run.
Edited by Dean - May 31 2011 at 12:47
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What?
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oliverstoned
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Posted: May 31 2011 at 13:44 |
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I've never adviced any portable headphone amp to drive the HD650, but to drive the HD25. Pluging the HD650 on the output of the Denon will give a poor result but you have not the choice anymore, since you ordered the 650's.
Edited by oliverstoned - June 01 2011 at 06:23
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Catcher10
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Posted: May 31 2011 at 15:15 |
 Dean wrote:
Quick answer: You do need a dedicated headphone amplifier to drive the HD650's from the Marantz CD5004 - the output of the Marantz is 18mW into 32 ohms - the HD650 are 300 ohms - basically you do not have enough voltage to drive the headphones and the maximum power you can feed into them from the Marantz is 1.9mW. [this means that the HD650's will be three times quieter than your HD380's when plugged into the Marantz]
However, you do not need a dedicated headphone amp - any amplifier with a headphone jack will suffice, you can even use your Denon DM38 as a headphone amp in the interim (just plug the CD player into the AUX in phono sockets at the rear).
Personally I would advice against the RSA Mustang P-51 Amp (which at $375 is not exactly what you would call "budget"), because it is a portable amp so needs batteries - and AC powered amp is better suited to your set-up, and will be a lot more versatile in the long-run. |
T this suggestion will help push your ear "walls" so that the sound is more dynamic, the bass will have a sonic sound better than what you currently have. The mids and highs will be crisp and clean...sonically of course.
Its the best.
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Dean
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Posted: May 31 2011 at 18:14 |
oliverstoned wrote:
I've never adviced any headphone amp to drive the HD650, but to drive the HD25. Pluging the HD650 on the output of the Denon will give a poor result but you have not the choice anymore, since you ordered the 650's. |
Poor is subjective and unless you've heard the Denon DM38 driving HD650 I can't see how you can make that statement.
The O/P of the Denon DM38 is quoted at 30W into 6 ohms, this equates to a driving voltage of 15.5VRMS. Typically a headphone O/P will have a 270R series resistor on each channel to reduce the voltage levels, which in this case would halve the drive voltage to 7.75VRMS, so when driving the HD650 the max O/P power will be 0.2W, or roughly half what the HD650 are rated at. In theory this should still produce sound presure levels around 100dB, which is more than enough. Of course I don't have the circuit schematic of the DM38 so I don't know how the headphone socket is wired, but in principle it should be able to drive the HD650 to "typical" listening levels without any detremental affect to the "sound", but only listening will tell for sure.
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The T
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Posted: May 31 2011 at 18:50 |
Thanks guys! I know without the headphone amp my headphones won't push walls (ear walls that is  ) but that's the next step!
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oliverstoned
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 06:33 |
Dean wrote:
oliverstoned wrote:
I've never adviced any headphone amp to drive the HD650, but to drive the HD25. Pluging the HD650 on the output of the Denon will give a poor result but you have not the choice anymore, since you ordered the 650's. |
Poor is subjective and unless you've heard the Denon DM38 driving HD650 I can't see how you can make that statement.
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Because headphone output stages on amps and sources are always bad.
You said "you don't need a dedicated headphone amp": you'd avoid doing such categoric statement because you've never heard a 650 drived by a good dedicated HP amp so you don't know what you're talking about.
But you said something true after: "but only listening will tell for sure" so as you've never heard it...the conclusion is quite obvious.
The T bought a 650 because he's looking for an excellent musical and sonic experience and he's about to get an excellent pair of electrodynamic HPs which has a fantastic (not as musical as the 600 but still)potential if paired with a real good dedicated headphone amp. That's why the T deserves real advices because he's about to be dispointed.
I talk because i know very well these two headphones: 600 & 650 which i owned, tried in many configurations and that i compared one against each other many times. The DM38 is a nice micro system but will be unable to reveal the full potential of the 650.
IMO the 600 remains currently the best, the 650 and the new 800 are less musical but anyway Senn does the best eletrodynamic HPs in the world.
To do better, one has to go to Stax, electrostatic technology which really pushes wall-ears  with the Lambda Signature, including its dedicated (valve) amp, which is simply the best headphone in the world. An ear-blowing experience!
Edited by oliverstoned - June 01 2011 at 07:00
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Dean
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 07:00 |
Let's not get into this here - Teo ask for advice, we gave it.
You have your opinion, I have mine.
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What?
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oliverstoned
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 07:01 |
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I have the experience, you don't. Now everyone is free to say what he wants.
Edited by oliverstoned - June 01 2011 at 07:09
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Dean
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 07:43 |
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What?
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 07:58 |
^^ Except that when people like me say too much, you leave the thread. 
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oliverstoned
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 08:03 |
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You try to rescue your friend...
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 09:33 |
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^ He's not in a situation that needs a rescue ... your claim of superiority ("I have the experience, you don't") is totally baseless and ultimately self-defeating.
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Dean
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 09:38 |
waving, not drowning 
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The T
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 12:04 |
Damn I never knew someone who had Stax headphones! Oliver really pushes walls here... 
I realized from the beginning that the HD650 were going to be under-juiced by either my DM38 or my CD5004. I don't have the money for a Beyerdynamic headphone amp or something like that. I will buy a 200$ v-can headphone amp that is getting praise everywhere for being low-cost-good-value. I hope it does the job. If not I'll have to wait a while for an economic recovery good enough to allow me to spend money on a better amp. I also changed the speakers in the DM38 from the stock denon to a couple of Definitive Technology 800 and a sub. So much improvement.
Oliver must have heard or even used the Sennheiser Orpheus he90. Did you? That was supposed to be in the same league as those mythical Stax headphones...
I also assume once you get to a certain point diminishing return start to appear and the sound difference is minimal...
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 12:28 |
oliverstoned wrote:
To do better, one has to go to Stax, electrostatic technology which really pushes wall-ears with the Lambda Signature, including its dedicated (valve) amp, which is simply the best headphone in the world. An ear-blowing experience!
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lolk
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Catcher10
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 12:47 |
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^ Not sure I have ever had my ears-blown.......?
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The T
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Posted: June 01 2011 at 12:48 |
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^But you certainly have your ears pushed...
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Headphones and amps...
