The GOP Presidential Race = Reality TV Stars and $

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Atavachron wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Atavachron wrote: Well then, sir, I oppose him and that most significant social position utterly and completely, and if you take your principles of freedom to be literal, I would expect you would to.  Is that fair to say? No I don't. If you could convince me otherwise I'd be happy to change my mind though. I thought it was self-expalnitory; a woman's right to a legal abortion is a freedom as any other.  I take the Libertarian stance to support such freedoms.  I do hope that's not incorrect, I mean to be in favor of allowing people to live as they please unless their State dictates otherwise doesn't sound like Liberty to me.  More like Confedralism or something. You're making one of two arguments to take the libertarian position. Either the fetus has no rights or the fetus has aggressed upon the woman. Which is it?

Both, or I suppose for our purposes, the first.  But I can see where this is going and I'm not interested in having a debate on abortion.  My puzzlement is in why someone who believes in ultimate freedom would be so hesitant to support full abortion rights whether or not they find themselves sucked into a philo-scientific argument that, as past threads on the subject show, are mostly fruitless.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: CCVP wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: CCVP wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: CCVP wrote: I've always been allarmed how degraded the political scene in the US is since the 80's and how we are marching towards that disgrace here since the past 5 years or so. Not that things are perfect here, God no, but electing people just because they are famous or rich. . . . Yeah that hasn't happened here. The governator would like to differ. Someone being famous does not imply they were elected because they were famous. Jesse Ventura certainly wasn't elected because he pinned Hulk Hogan. using an exception as the rule really works when making a point . . . Ummmmm that's funny because it's exactly what you did.

and how using the exception to the exception helps you in any way?

Barking Weasel wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: I just came in here to say RON PAUL RON RAUL RON PAUL RON PAUL. A good man, but a weak presidential candidate like every other GOP'er.  Nonetheless, he's the only honest Republican Politician out there.

Fixed.
Now that Russ Feingold has been given the boot I'd agree the Paul's are probably the only honest ones.

JJLehto wrote: Barking Weasel wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: I just came in here to say RON PAUL RON RAUL RON PAUL RON PAUL. A good man, but a weak presidential candidate like every other GOP'er.  Nonetheless, he's the only honest Republican Politician out there.  Fixed. Now that Russ Feingold has been given the boot I'd agree the Paul's are probably the only honest ones.

Barking Weasel wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Because I believe that a fetus has rights What kind of rights, exactly?  The right to vote, bear arms, have free speech, and all that?

JJLehto wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: JJLehto wrote: Barking Weasel wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: I just came in here to say RON PAUL RON RAUL RON PAUL RON PAUL. A good man, but a weak presidential candidate like every other GOP'er.  Nonetheless, he's the only honest Republican Politician out there.  Fixed. Now that Russ Feingold has been given the boot I'd agree the Paul's are probably the only honest ones. Kucinich is pretty honest. Though he was very shady with the health care vote. Oh thank you! I forgot about him! Sad since he was one of my favorites as well. I've only come from under my political rock recently, can you enlighten me? I'm not sure what you mean.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: JJLehto wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: JJLehto wrote: Barking Weasel wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: I just came in here to say RON PAUL RON RAUL RON PAUL RON PAUL. A good man, but a weak presidential candidate like every other GOP'er.  Nonetheless, he's the only honest Republican Politician out there.  Fixed. Now that Russ Feingold has been given the boot I'd agree the Paul's are probably the only honest ones. Kucinich is pretty honest. Though he was very shady with the health care vote. Oh thank you! I forgot about him! Sad since he was one of my favorites as well. I've only come from under my political rock recently, can you enlighten me? I'm not sure what you mean. I don't remember the exact detail. He wasn't going to vote for it because it didn't include a certain provision(single payer) he deemed necessary. He said he would not vote for it unless that was included time and time again. Obama took him for a ride on Air Force One. He then changed his mind saying that it was better than nothing so what the hell he'd vote for it.

hmm....that is intriguing. Especially after meeting with Obama, have to wonder what he was threatened with? Which is what my gut says.

Kind of like Chris Dodd who argued against a certain measure the SEC put forward, but then put that very thing in the Wall Street reform bill! Supposedly the pressure came from the White House.
Obama is a little more moderate, and iron fisted than many expected!

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Atavachron wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Atavachron wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Atavachron wrote: Well then, sir, I oppose him and that most significant social position utterly and completely, and if you take your principles of freedom to be literal, I would expect you would to.  Is that fair to say? No I don't. If you could convince me otherwise I'd be happy to change my mind though. I thought it was self-expalnitory; a woman's right to a legal abortion is a freedom as any other.  I take the Libertarian stance to support such freedoms.  I do hope that's not incorrect, I mean to be in favor of allowing people to live as they please unless their State dictates otherwise doesn't sound like Liberty to me.  More like Confedralism or something. You're making one of two arguments to take the libertarian position. Either the fetus has no rights or the fetus has aggressed upon the woman. Which is it? Both, or I suppose for our purposes, the first.  But I can see where this is going and I'm not interested in having a debate on abortion.  My puzzlement is in why someone who believes in ultimate freedom would be so hesitant to support full abortion rights whether or not they find themselves sucked into a philo-scientific argument that, as past threads on the subject show, are mostly fruitless. Because I believe that a fetus has rights and that the second condition is by no means met. I won't proselytize since you don't want to hear it though.  Suffice it to say that I believe my libertarian cred is safe.

Alright, that's a reasonable thing to say, you feel how you feel and I've no ability or even desire to change it.  But I really just cannot get past an individual with a belief that holds personal freedoms dear, but won't support and would indeed actively oppose the right of an adult woman to decide what she wants to do with her body.  Do Libertarians believe in Right-to-Die?  What about drug legalization?  Gays in the military?  I have to assume the answer must by definition be an absolute Yes, including abortion rights.  And if the answer is not Yes, then no one's "libertarian cred" is safe.  How could it be?








Edited by Atavachron - May 28 2011 at 21:12

Barking Weasel wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Barking Weasel wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Because I believe that a fetus has rights What kind of rights, exactly?  The right to vote, bear arms, have free speech, and all that? yerp Perhaps another thread would suffice for this, but how do you feel about victims of rape/incest getting an abortion?

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Barking Weasel wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Barking Weasel wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Because I believe that a fetus has rights What kind of rights, exactly?  The right to vote, bear arms, have free speech, and all that? yerp Perhaps another thread would suffice for this, but how do you feel about victims of rape/incest getting an abortion? I'm against abortion still, but I feel bad about saying yes to both sides. It's one of those issues where I pretty much just don't know.

Oh sh*t we agree on something else.