SR 36: Looks like I pulled a (band)Camping : - (

Anthony H. wrote: SaltyJon wrote: VdGG peaked with H to He..., IMO.  Pawn Hearts is their peak for me.

Silly people.

Still Life was their pièce de résistance.

Crane Wife is good too, I suppose, Matt.

Anthony H. wrote: Epignosis wrote: Anthony H. wrote: Hey Rob, I have a question I was wondering about (I would ask it in the Lib. Thread, but it's not really active): How do you reconcile libertarianism with your own Christian beliefs? The two philosophies seem contradictory. I love that question!  But before I answer, I want to know why you think they are contradictory.   Jesus preached absolute selflessness. Libertarianism preaches rational self-interest. Jesus would want you to give all your possessions away and live in poverty, actually. He was certainly was not a capitalist.

OK...that's why I asked.  Some people take the economic side of it while some give the moralistic side of it.

Libertarianism, at its core is this: "You do not initiate force or fraud against anyone's property or person unjustly."  Government does this.

Now Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's."  Is Christ for big government?  I would say no. The problem is twofold: First, we tend to treat everything Jesus did and said as though it were from a political and cultural vacuum.  More importantly, Christ's goal was not to start a riot with Rome (as the Pharisees wanted him to).  His aim was not governmental reform, but to die on a cross for sinners.

That said, what did Jesus mean by this?

In a nutshell, maybe Jesus was probably giving sound financial advice: Gresham's Law. 

 ¹⁵ Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. ¹⁶ They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. ¹⁷ Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?”

 ¹⁸ But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? ¹⁹ Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, ²⁰ and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

 ²¹ “Caesar’s,” they replied.

   Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

 ²² When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

Now the Romans kind of allowed theft.  Not just "tax" (as theft), but the tax collectors could charge more than was due and keep their share.  Jesus ate with the tax collectors, but called them what they were: Sinners (consider Matthew and Zacchaeus).  In fact, ancient Hebrew "wit" even said that if a tax collector were ever to return to the grace of God, he would die immediately, because he was so crooked that he might soon turn astray again!   

So to your specific claims:

1. Jesus preached absolute selflessness.

Erm, okay sure- but not immediately because of mankind's benefit.  Jesus was absolutely devoted to God the Father, not to man.  What Jesus did on Earth was at the behest of God and- catch this- for the incidental benefit of humans.  We receive salvation because God is glorified in sending His Son to die as a substitution.  Christ was obedient to that end.  He actually refused people's requests.

2. Libertarianism preaches rational self-interest.

Yes it does.  There's much more to it than that though, and I could explain fictive-kinship relationships (as they applied in ANE culture) and compare them to Christian churches, but suffice it to say that Christian charity is voluntary, as is church membership.  Giving freely of yourself is one thing- being robbed is another.

3. Jesus would want you to give all your possessions away and live in poverty, actually.

Really?  Well...that's what Jesus said to one person.  He himself obviously didn't do that.  He had clothes didn't he?  His disciples had at least one boat.  He told his disciples to buy a sword.  He rebuked Judas I. for Judas's idea that some expensive perfume that was poured on Jesus' feet should have been sold and the money given to the poor.  I could go on.  This idea that Jesus demands believers to sell everything and give it to the poor is again something he said that is very much removed from its context, namely, his command to one person who would not follow him in devotion to God because the dude's own possessions were where his heart was.

4. He was certainly was not a capitalist.

He was a carpenter by trade.  Did he do his work for free or not?  If you can't answer that, then you cannot say "certainly." 



Edited by Epignosis - May 17 2011 at 22:42

Rob, the title....  

Triceratopsoil wrote: Padraic wrote: I'm a beer drinking electrical engineer. I'm a beer drinking electrical engineering student

Oh, you decided EE?

Let it be known that my vector calculus class was boring, and we wasted an hour and a half with him talking to the students about themselves and about himself. 

Triceratopsoil wrote: Padraic wrote: I'm a beer drinking electrical engineer. I'm a beer drinking electrical engineering student

BROFIST

My question is still not answered, btw. 

The Truth wrote: A Person wrote: The Truth wrote: A Person wrote: I don't know how I feel about The Mushing Punkins.   You've listened? nein. I like the shorter tracks on Crane Wife best I think.   But what about The Island?!

Possibly least favorite track.


Edited by A Person - May 17 2011 at 22:49

Oh, no Lady Gaga is going to ruin our magical pony palace.

Night.

Epignosis wrote: Anthony H. wrote: Epignosis wrote: Anthony H. wrote: Hey Rob, I have a question I was wondering about (I would ask it in the Lib. Thread, but it's not really active): How do you reconcile libertarianism with your own Christian beliefs? The two philosophies seem contradictory. I love that question!  But before I answer, I want to know why you think they are contradictory.   Jesus preached absolute selflessness. Libertarianism preaches rational self-interest. Jesus would want you to give all your possessions away and live in poverty, actually. He was certainly was not a capitalist. OK...that's why I asked.  Some people take the economic side of it while some give the moralistic side of it. Libertarianism, at its core is this: "You do not initiate force or fraud against anyone's property or person unjustly."  Government does this. Now Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's."  Is Christ for big government?  I would say no. The problem is twofold: First, we tend to treat everything Jesus did and said as though it were from a political and cultural vacuum.  More importantly, Christ's goal was not to start a riot with Rome (as the Pharisees wanted him to).  His aim was not governmental reform, but to die on a cross for sinners. That said, what did Jesus mean by this? In a nutshell, maybe Jesus was probably giving sound financial advice: Gresham's Law.   15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?”  18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”  21 “Caesar’s,” they replied.    Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”  22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away. Now the Romans kind of allowed theft.  Not just "tax" (as theft), but the tax collectors could charge more than was due and keep their share.  Jesus ate with the tax collectors, but called them what they were: Sinners (consider Matthew and Zacchaeus).  In fact, ancient Hebrew "wit" even said that if a tax collector were ever to return to the grace of God, he would die immediately, because he was so crooked that he might soon turn astray again!    So to your specific claims: 1. Jesus preached absolute selflessness. Erm, okay sure- but not immediately because of mankind's benefit.  Jesus was absolutely devoted to God the Father, not to man.  What Jesus did on Earth was at the behest of God and- catch this- for the incidental benefit of humans.  We receive salvation because God is glorified in sending His Son to die as a substitution.  Christ was obedient to that end.  He actually refused people's requests. 2. Libertarianism preaches rational self-interest. Yes it does.  There's much more to it than that though, and I could explain fictive-kinship relationships (as they applied in ANE culture) and compare them to Christian churches, but suffice it to say that Christian charity is voluntary, as is church membership.  Giving freely of yourself is one thing- being robbed is another. 3. Jesus would want you to give all your possessions away and live in poverty, actually. Really?  Well...that's what Jesus said to one person.  He himself obviously didn't do that.  He had clothes didn't he?  His disciples had at least one boat.  He told his disciples to buy a sword.  He rebuked Judas I. for Judas's idea that some expensive perfume that was poured on Jesus' feet should have been sold and the money given to the poor.  I could go on.  This idea that Jesus demands believers to sell everything and give it to the poor is again something he said that is very much removed from its context, namely, his command to one person who would not follow him in devotion to God because the dude's own possessions were where his heart was. 4. He was certainly was not a capitalist. He was a carpenter by trade.  Did he do his work for free or not?  If you can't answer that, then you cannot say "certainly."

I appreciate your response Rob, I'll try to respond to some of your points tomorrow. Bedtime now.

No problem Anthony- I'm tired too.  Off to bed.