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hobocamp 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2010
Location: Fine Furniture
Status: Offline
Points: 525
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 Posted: May 16 2011 at 11:35 |
 Vibrationbaby wrote:
I think it's the elves & sh*t. Yeah the elves & sh*t. Also the wizards, dragons and magic kingdoms. Scares the living crap out of normal people.
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^ Naw couldn't be. Those same people cream their pants whenever Robert Plant screeches that airy fairy stuff. 
Edited by hobocamp - May 16 2011 at 11:40
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 11:36 |
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Here's one definition of aleatoric music: "...in which some element of music is left to chance and/or some primary element is left to the determination of the composer". This does not seem to square up with toddler wailing on the toy piano.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 11:37 |
hobocamp wrote:
^ Naw couldn't be. Those same people cream their pants whenever Robert Plant screeches that airy fairy stuff. |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 11:42 |
Epignosis wrote:
My only consolation is the belief that he was dreaming of colorful ponies.
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Is Henry Plainview you father? 
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 11:52 |
It would be quite ridiculous if we all liked the same music. Quite terrible too, for many many reasons.
Not everyone has been socialized into liking music that demands more than just casual listening to fully appreciate. Not everybody like the same things even after socialization and learning and modeling. Of course simple enjoyable music is more attractive than 10+ minute songs that talk about purple clouds for the normal person who conceives music just as a hobby or more so just as a side entertainment. Not everybody holds music in that big sacred pantheon that prog lovers and even more so classical music fans like I do. For some people it's just sounds, for others is more than that. Some people want to be told something else by the notes, some prefer to dance to it, some prefer to drive to it. Whatever.
The important thing is to recognize that all options are valid. Yes, I won't say I think Kanye West is equal to JSBach, but given the circumstances, I might even find some enjoyment in some songs of the former. The latter, of course, always fill my entire soul.
We are not THAT unidimensional, or so I hope at least...
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wilmon91
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2009
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 698
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 11:53 |
rogerthat wrote:
Music fans are constantly caught in launching into character assassinations simply because someone doesn't like their favourite music (oh, the shock, the horror!) and I can't be bothered, really. |
People commonly have an opinion already in the first 30 seconds of a song, and in such cases , I'm not offended by their supposed opinion, because they can't have a real opinion of something they haven't heard. It's a close-mindedness which doesn't bother me, but everyone can't have a real interest for music. But if someone says to me with contempt that "this sucks" , I'm just very unimpressed by that person. But it hasn't happened, probably because I haven't played music among people. I play it at home, but I'm not a fan of earphones, I want music to be played out in free space, that's what it's supposed to be, not confined and directed inwards to your brain.
rogerthat wrote:
If your feelings about your favourite songs are so precious and fragile, don't subject yourself to further torture by sharing it with many people which will lead to more heartburn. |
I could probably convince a few people that some artist is worth listening to, but then they will be interested just because they have faith in my opinions, and I really like people to feel for themselves. I might say that "I have discovered this great artist". But if the reply is "Great!" rather than "What artist?", then I won't push more information on them if they aren't interested. maybe it's cynical, but I discover so many artists with so many different qualities that the only kind of people I could share it with are those that are doing the same thing - people hunting for new musical discoveries with an open mind.
rogerthat wrote:
So I wouldn't readily engage in a conversation about music unless I sense that there's some common ground between me and the other person. |
Yeah, and the only common ground necessary is an interest for music, I think.
rogerthat wrote:
Now because I do like good 'non-prog' music, I find it more fruitful to talk about THAT to others without getting into the subject of prog and possibly letting sparks fly. |
Is it that sensitive?  It's probably the proggers more often than others who let the sparks fly I would believe.
But that goes for all conversations - we try to talk about things that both people know and can relate to.
rogerthat wrote:
It took me a good deal of time to realize that syncopation in rap is a lot of fun when you come to think of it. |
Hip-hop is a genre I havent investigated at all. But I guess what I hear is just the mainstream stereotype hip-hop. I assume that there's other kinds with different lyrical content. I know a few songs with rap that I like though:
The Durutti Column - Overlord Part One
The Cinematic Orchestra - All things to all men
The KLF - Last train to trancentral
rogerthat wrote:
Playing music that is not universally liked such that others can hear is similar to that, imo. You are forcing your tastes on somebody else's ears then, so don't expect a warm response unless, by a sheer miracle, you happen to stumble on a prog listener. |
All people deserves a fair chance of discovering alternative kinds of music. I don't think it should be hidden away. But as you say, it can't be forced.
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 12:09 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
I think it's the elves & sh*t. Yeah the elves & sh*t. Also the wizards, dragons and magic kingdoms. Scares the living crap out of normal people. |
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Help me I'm falling!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 12:12 |
wilmon91 wrote:
But if someone says to me with contempt that "this sucks" , I'm just very unimpressed by that person. But it hasn't happened, probably because I haven't played music among people. I play it at home, but I'm not a fan of earphones, I want music to be played out in free space, that's what it's supposed to be, not confined and directed inwards to your brain. |
Again, different situations, If somebody walks up to you, having the knowledge that you are a prog listener, and ridicules you for it, you are well within your rights to 'diss' his music. I already made it clear in the previous post that I don't set much store for political correctness myself. But if you play something and he doesn't like it, there's not much you can do about the way he reacts. He might be civil to you and say he doesn't like it and he would rather you listen to something else or he might be rude and say it sucks. It is important, however, to recognize that this says more about his poor manners as a person and less about his musical aptitude or perceptions. Some progheads are too quick to read into the latter just because someone doesn't like prog and our friend here too made the same mistake initially though he seems to want to backtrack from it now.
wilmon9 wrote:
1I could probably convince a few people that some artist is worth listening to, but then they will be interested just because they have faith in my opinions, and I really like people to feel for themselves. I might say that "I have discovered this great artist". But if the reply is "Great!" rather than "What artist?", then I won't push more information on them if they aren't interested. maybe it's cynical, but I discover so many artists with so many different qualities that the only kind of people I could share it with are those that are doing the same thing - people hunting for new musical discoveries with an open mind. |
All that is only possible when listeners show patience, which they commonly don't. And I mean listeners here in general, not prog, not pop, they are all the same as far as I am concerned, including myself. We are too busy with the hustle and bustle of the modern way of life to always be able to properly appreciate another perspective. But for the curious, the internet and its myriad social networks and communities is a boon. You can always discover great music nobody told you about just by reading stuff patiently on the net and following up on the suggestions. That is how I began to listen to prog rock. I did not have to wait for somebody to make the effort to initiate me into it. I found the term used in some context, read about it on wikipedia and I was away. If people are not curious enough to get into new or "not-heard-before" music in this sort of fashion, they are probably not too keen on expanding their musical horizon anyway and not worth troubling.
wilmon9 wrote:
Yeah, and the only common ground necessary is an interest for music, I think. |
Oops, I should have made myself clearer - common ground within music. Related to that, I find common ground more easily with sports and stick to that.
wilmon9 wrote:
Is it that sensitive? It's probably the proggers more often than others who let the sparks fly I would believe. |
Those who dislike prog really hate it. And in the post-punk (as in, chronologically speaking, not referring to the genre) rock epoch, people into heavy music carry all that "prog is pretentious drivel" baggage. That they may not speak about it openly does not mean they don't share those views. Any mission to educate them of your perspective would likely be futile.
wilmon9 wrote:
All people deserves a fair chance of discovering alternative kinds of music. I don't think it should be hidden away.
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See above. People who are interested will find out for themselves and the rest can go to hell. It's no great loss if they don't find out about something they might like because it's just music at the end of the day. Nasty, perhaps, but saves a lot of trouble.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13776
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 12:17 |
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I don't really care what other people think. I enjoy it and that's enough for me.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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wilmon91
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2009
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 698
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 12:55 |
Alitare wrote:
Again, music has no universal value. If it did, rocks, trees, chimpanzees, and aquatic life forms would be lined up to go see the next Rihanna concert, but they aren't. |
So that would happen if a piece of music had an objective high quality? Rocks have no mind. Can animals comprehend and understand music? If they can in some way, how would we know their approach to it? Just because a fish might like Rihanna doesn't mean it would cancel all their daily duties and go and buy a concert ticket .Animals are closer to nature than humans and rely mostly on survival instinct, they are really dedicated to it.
Alitare wrote:
How can you scientifically prove that the music produced by a toddler wailing on a toy piano is 'bad'? Can you do this with charts, graphs, and infallible data? If we cannot prove inherent goodness or badness, then how can music be universally measurable? |
Science has it's limits. You can only use human reasoning, you can't prove such things. And the exact measure of the quality of a music piece is impossible to determine, it can only be estimated. You can also judge music from different perspectives - if a song is made to serve a specific purpose, you can estimate how well it served that purpose, but judged by itself, by its own quality unrelated to everything else, it has to be judged with all kinds of perspectives at the same time.
I'm just thinking out loud...If you judge a tea-bag by itself for instance, what is it without water? You need water and the tea-bag to make a complete drink. Individual music pieces, are they, or do they need to be complete? If you hear a crazy extremely loud punk rock song , it's probably made as a contrast or reaction to society or something else. So its a counter reaction. So the song might be dependent on the larger context to be "complete". I think music , though it can have divine qualities, it always reflects the human aspirations, feelings and stuff. So a perfect piece of music doesnt have to contain all kinds of moods, rhythms, tempos to be "great" and "complete". It reflects human aspects with different perspectives. Just some random thoughts to try to point to the extreme complexity of the question.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 13:09 |
wilmon91 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
Again, music has no universal value. If it did, rocks, trees, chimpanzees, and aquatic life forms would be lined up to go see the next Rihanna concert, but they aren't. |
So that would happen if a piece of music had an objective high quality? Rocks have no mind. Can animals comprehend and understand music? If they can in some way, how would we know their approach to it? Just because a fish might like Rihanna doesn't mean it would cancel all their daily duties and go and buy a concert ticket .Animals are closer to nature than humans and rely mostly on survival instinct, they are really dedicated to it.
Alitare wrote:
How can you scientifically prove that the music produced by a toddler wailing on a toy piano is 'bad'? Can you do this with charts, graphs, and infallible data? If we cannot prove inherent goodness or badness, then how can music be universally measurable? |
Science has it's limits. You can only use human reasoning, you can't prove such things. And the exact measure of the quality of a music piece is impossible to determine, it can only be estimated. You can also judge music from different perspectives - if a song is made to serve a specific purpose, you can estimate how well it served that purpose, but judged by itself, by its own quality unrelated to everything else, it has to be judged with all kinds of perspectives at the same time.
I'm just thinking out loud...If you judge a tea-bag by itself for instance, what is it without water? You need water and the tea-bag to make a complete drink. Individual music pieces, are they, or do they need to be complete? If you hear a crazy extremely loud punk rock song , it's probably made as a contrast or reaction to society or something else. So its a counter reaction. So the song might be dependent on the larger context to be "complete". I think music , though it can have divine qualities, it always reflects the human aspirations, feelings and stuff. So a perfect piece of music doesnt have to contain all kinds of moods, rhythms, tempos to be "great" and "complete". It reflects human aspects with different perspectives. Just some random thoughts to try to point to the extreme complexity of the question. |
If animals only rely on survival instinct, then are you implying they don't think or dream? Animals think, learn, and grow. They have instincts similarly to ours, and they perceive sound. But to them, who knows what the difference between David Bowie and Slayer means? You aren't a rabbit, you can't tell. My question, which has yet to be answered, is how can you intrinsically prove that one song is universally 'better' than another?
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Siloportem
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 14 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 216
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 13:25 |
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Why get upset because someone disses your music? One taste isn't better than anothers? Where I work we make fun of each others music all the time. And music usually isn't very important to people. So don't expect a "Kind sir please turn off your music for it does not please my ears." when someone doesn't like your music. There will probably be a referal to noise.
Having said that, I do have tolerable colleagues. I can get away with a lot of prog as long as I follow a few rules (which I have found out through research).
1) No heavy metal. The DTs got me killed.
2) Nothing with long instrumental passages (although there are exceptions).
I can usually get away with stuff that sounds funny or offbeat or not too irregular. Examples: Anekdoten, Comus, Paatos, Pure Reason Revolution, Kaipa (if I'm lucky), The Gathering, OSI, Mike Oldfield, Amon Duul 2, Epica (one of them used to live next to my boss), Gentle Giant
Unfortunately there's no pleasing one guy. He's usually listens a few minutes and then he says something like:"Bart, your music makes me want to jump off a bridge." And then he turns on the radio and there's Giel Beelen who call people in the early morning and makes them sing:"Begin de dag met 1 lach." (start the day with a smile).
THE HORROR
Funniest remark:"Is that Rammstein?" (I was playing Amon Duul 2 Deutch Nepal)
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Thanks !! Your topics always so good and informative. I like you talk.
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wilmon91
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2009
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 698
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 13:25 |
Alitare wrote:
My question, which has yet to be answered, is how can you intrinsically prove that one song is universally 'better' than another? |
You can't, as I said, you can only use reason.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 13:46 |
wilmon91 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
My question, which has yet to be answered, is how can you intrinsically prove that one song is universally 'better' than another? |
You can't, as I said, you can only use reason. |
But which reason is the best reason?
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petrica
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 133
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 13:54 |
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I know one or two people around me listening to this kind of music. But that doesn't stop me listening to what I like and what I want. I'm really sure that this kind of music is not for everyone(but don't take it in a negative way). I simply prefer much more complex music in terms of musicality/lyrics/technicality/composition and the others around me don't .They just listen to the daily radio crap.I take care my own business and music and prefer to listen to it quietly. I don't want to spend to much time saying how great is S. Howe or how amazing is a VDGG tune. They just prefer to do something else with their time instead of reading PA and discovering old or new obscure or well known acts. Probably PF described this better: "Finally I understand/The feelings of the few/Ashes and diamonds/Foe and friend/
We were all equal in the end"
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 14:22 |
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When someone comes over who absolutely hates weird music I'll put on the weirdest sh*t I own. Cluster's Im suden, Vangelis' Beaubourg or Brainticket's Cottonwood Hill or better still Silver Apples Oscillations & Seagreen Serenades. Any Throbbing Gristle will also drive 'em up the wall as well.Of Course you could call in the heavy artillery : Guru Guru UFO. A lot of my friends cannot withstand that usually does them in and they raise the white flag.
Edited by Vibrationbaby - May 16 2011 at 14:31
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leonalvarado
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 03 2009
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 177
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 19:31 |
To be honest, I think is a combination of things. Progressive music requires more attention to it than your average pop music. That's a reason. Another reason (in my opinion), is that many prog rock fans are pompous and obnoxious about it. I know it all too well, I used to be like that myself. Somewhere along the line I learned that there are many good musicians in all genres. Regardless of what people think, there are hardly any flukes with people that manage to make hit after hit and so forth.
However, even within these forums you can read the adamant posture that some fans take regarding music. It is as if they gave birth to the genre all by themselves. It is one thing to love your genre of music and another to just bash anything that doesn't cut it in your eyes. Plus, many of these people will criticise something or someone with the same fervour a Lioness defends her cubs. I think it's insane but I'm sure I'm in just part of a small minority.
Many "proggers" love to boast about how much better their taste in music is. Many think their opinion is the only one that counts which comes across as very off-putting.
I consider myself a big fan of progressive rock. I grew up with it as it grew up itself. I have worked for many progressive acts as well as putting out two CDs of progressive music myself. I have performances by people like Bill Bruford and John Goodsall on my albums and worked with sound engineers over at Abbey Road Studios and Metropolis. I don't consider myself the ultimate expert but I like to think that I know a thing or two about the subject.
What I'm not, is somebody that lets his feelings for the genre close his eyes to other posibilities. There are many good fans here but there are also many haters with not much in mind other than to take the opposite point of view regardless. Perhaps there is some of that in the reasons as to why progressive rock is not more popular.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 20:07 |
^ I think it's all your fault. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
Status: Offline
Points: 16952
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 20:19 |
petrica wrote:
I know one or two people around me listening to this kind of music. But that doesn't stop me listening to what I like and what I want. I'm really sure that this kind of music is not for everyone(but don't take it in a negative way). I simply prefer much more complex music in terms of musicality/lyrics/technicality/composition and the others around me don't .They just listen to the daily radio crap.I take care my own business and music and prefer to listen to it quietly. I don't want to spend to much time saying how great is S. Howe or how amazing is a VDGG tune. They just prefer to do something else with their time instead of reading PA and discovering old or new obscure or well known acts. Probably PF described this better: "Finally I understand/The feelings of the few/Ashes and diamonds/Foe and friend/
We were all equal in the end"
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Alot of people here can prolly relate to this (i know i do). Except those few people who have the same musical interest i talk to as much as i can about it. It is something i enjoy doing, wether people around us like hearing about my favorite part in a 20min song or not.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 16 2011 at 22:59 |
Alitare wrote:
If animals only rely on survival instinct, then are you implying they don't think or dream? Animals think, learn, and grow. They have instincts similarly to ours, and they perceive sound. But to them, who knows what the difference between David Bowie and Slayer means? You aren't a rabbit, you can't tell. My question, which has yet to be answered, is how can you intrinsically prove that one song is universally 'better' than another? |
For that matter, we don't know if rabbits apply Newton's Laws of Gravity or Einstein's Theory of Relativity either. That is simply irrelevant. Biologists have only studied animal behaviour but they do not really know what goes on in their minds so it is not necessary that animals should recognize the existence of music for it to be something universally proven. It is only universally accepted within mankind and that is enough. For the record, people have got chimps to play instruments, so it may even be possible, but I think it is irrelevant in any case.
In my experience, even the most musically disinclined person can tell sound from music easily, regardless of whether he likes music or listens to it as a pastime, and that is enough evidence that music exists as different from sound. We do not have to get into the outer fringes of avant garde and how musically illiterate people confused avant garde with sound because the whole purpose of such music is to push its boundaries and thereby closer to noise and sound and to that extent, it could even be said to have achieved its purpose. But anybody can tell a simple pop song as music and a revving up automobile engine as sound, so music exists. What value we ascribe to music and whether we should ascribe any value to music at all are more subjective and debatable considerations, but music as a phenomenon in sound exists.
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