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The Dark Elf
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 16:57 |
Garden of Dreams wrote:
...I still feel the music is more important than the lyrics anyway. I don't think I have heard lyrics that have drastically changed my life. |
Hmmm...being an adolescent and going to Catholic school in the early 70s, I would have to say that Aqualung was very meaningful. Ian Anderson said things about god and religion that I was wondering about. I haven't looked at religion the same since (in fact, I haven't looked at religion at all).
I would say there are many songs that have had relevance and caused epiphanies in my life. And of course that covers a wide spectrum of music, not merely prog. I don't see how anyone cannot be moved by Lennon's "Imagine" or "Working Class Hero", or Dylan's "It's alright Ma (I'm only Bleeding) and "Masters of War". Peter Gabriel's "Biko" or "Here Comes the Flood" are also cause for reflection.
Perhaps what some folks are getting at here is because so much of progressive rock deals with fantasy, science fiction or impressionistic vocal renderings, that there is not a great deal of "meaningful" lyrics; but then, from a stylistic standpoint, I would have to say that rock in general is downright trogloyditic and mostly deals with trying to get into women's pants. Which is a fairly natural expectation when you're in a band.
Edited by The Dark Elf - May 08 2011 at 16:58
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Eloy82
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2011
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Points: 116
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 20:24 |
Eloy rocks the lyrics... "Dawn".... come on... Brilliant.
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Eloy82
Forum Senior Member
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Points: 116
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 20:25 |
"Power and Passion".... makes no sense but still brilliant lyrics. Imagine if they made sense!
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1791 Overture
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Posted: May 09 2011 at 01:47 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
No, Yes and Genesis were prog, and JT was for a few albums. Moody Blues were psychedelic pop, Rush was hard rock, Styx was arena rock/AOR.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
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Points: 3595
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Posted: May 09 2011 at 11:08 |
1791 Overture wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
No, Yes and Genesis were prog, and JT was for a few albums. Moody Blues were psychedelic pop, Rush was hard rock, Styx was arena rock/AOR. |
What is prog? Doesn't that depend on your definition of the word? According to this site, Rush were heavy prog and MB were psychedelic crossover pop prog, and Styx were (prog related? I don't remember where the site has them). I could say Yes were hard rock, I could say Genesis were symphonic rock. I could say JT were just hard folk.
At any rate, I thought Elf was being sarcastic.
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Garden of Dreams
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Joined: April 26 2011
Location: United States
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Points: 336
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Posted: May 09 2011 at 20:59 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Garden of Dreams wrote:
...I still feel the music is more important than the lyrics anyway. I don't think I have heard lyrics that have drastically changed my life. |
Hmmm...being an adolescent and going to Catholic school in the early 70s, I would have to say that Aqualung was very meaningful. Ian Anderson said things about god and religion that I was wondering about. I haven't looked at religion the same since (in fact, I haven't looked at religion at all).
I would say there are many songs that have had relevance and caused epiphanies in my life. And of course that covers a wide spectrum of music, not merely prog. I don't see how anyone cannot be moved by Lennon's "Imagine" or "Working Class Hero", or Dylan's "It's alright Ma (I'm only Bleeding) and "Masters of War". Peter Gabriel's "Biko" or "Here Comes the Flood" are also cause for reflection.
Perhaps what some folks are getting at here is because so much of progressive rock deals with fantasy, science fiction or impressionistic vocal renderings, that there is not a great deal of "meaningful" lyrics; but then, from a stylistic standpoint, I would have to say that rock in general is downright trogloyditic and mostly deals with trying to get into women's pants. Which is a fairly natural expectation when you're in a band. |
Another fair point. I definitely prefer prog lyrics to lyrics about getting "into a women's pants". I am a little unfair to myself as Faithless, by Rush, has helped mold my religious opinion. But I feel that lyrics may be relevant and maybe even eye opening but I don't expect to be wowed by them. I have to say that lyrics from The Tangent make me ponder.
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Earthsmoke
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Joined: April 01 2011
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Points: 24
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Posted: May 09 2011 at 21:55 |
prog058 wrote:
This could also be called the Fish appreciation thread.
Prog bands, while excelling musically, are often lackluster in the lyrical department.
Most prog musicians probably don't take an interest in language and literature, and this is probably the reason why.
What are your thoughts?
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There are poor lyrics in every genre of music, including prog However, unlike other genres, the lyrics in prog are usually good and are often excellent.
Edited by Earthsmoke - May 09 2011 at 21:59
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prog058
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Location: Australia
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 06:30 |
Eloy82 wrote:
Eloy rocks the lyrics... "Dawn".... come on... Brilliant.
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Was that a Ricky Gervais: 'brilliant,'? haha
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1791 Overture
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 09:47 |
Alitare wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
No, Yes and Genesis were prog, and JT was for a few albums. Moody Blues were psychedelic pop, Rush was hard rock, Styx was arena rock/AOR. |
What is prog? Doesn't that depend on your definition of the word? According to this site, Rush were heavy prog and MB were psychedelic crossover pop prog, and Styx were (prog related? I don't remember where the site has them). I could say Yes were hard rock, I could say Genesis were symphonic rock. I could say JT were just hard folk.
At any rate, I thought Elf was being sarcastic. |
Sounded to me like sarcasm that was trying to make a serious point beneath it - i.e., "your definition of prog is so strict that prog may as well not exist." Which is of course bullsh*t, because those three bands don't exhibit any of the qualities associated with prog, such as demanding or unconventional song structures. And no, Genesis and Yes could not similarly be reduced away, because they actually do have those qualities.
Anyway, back to lyrics - it seems to me like you're just trying to arbitrarily what is or isn't emotional or "human" and box it in. Music is always going to be human, because as far as we know we're the only ones who can even appreciate it in the sense we think about it. So no, Close to the Edge isn't somehow less human, and many people do find it emotional. I'm tired of this mentality that "it's only human and emotional if it talks about a breakup, or some obvious feeling of sorrow or anger." The whole point of progressive music is to find new modes of expression. Why not have subject matter that's more removed from daily experience? Pop and alt rock seem to have solidified the notion that the pinnacle of human emotion is how a sixteen year old feels after getting dumped, and that anything that deviates from that deviates from being "emotional," which really means "music how I like it and f**k anyone trying to be different wink wink." Tired of the reactionary crap, tired of the chauvinism. Write lyrics about whatever you want. "Real music for real people, no prog allowed!" is crap. Real people listen to prog and actually enjoy its lyrics, imagine that.
If you prefer lyrics that deal with your definition of human and emotional, there's music for you everywhere. At least let us have our little corner where we can do something else for once, because some people consider what you find emotional to be banal, and would not enjoy all music being confined to it.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 10:35 |
1791 Overture wrote:
I'm tired of this mentality that "it's only human and emotional if it talks about a breakup, or some obvious feeling of sorrow or anger."
At least let us have our little corner where we can do something else for once, because some people consider what you find emotional to be banal, and would not enjoy all music being confined to it. |
That first line is a gross generalization because there are lots of extremely nuanced and interesting human feelings to talk about which have been dealt with very well by artists from various genres over the years. Maybe you are unable to 'condescend' to listen properly to 'non-prog'. And as for the other line, I am equally tired of the notion that only talking about sci-fi or fantasy unicorns is 'intelligent' and 'intellectual' and anything else is 'emo'. I do think lines like "You work your life away and what do they give/you're only killing yourself to live" make a much more direct and memorable impact than say Farewell-era Rush's stuffiness. Well, at least for me they do, and can we 'outcasts' have our own little corner to listen to some soulful music once in a while because we don't think it's a sin?
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 12:37 |
1791 Overture wrote:
Alitare wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
No, Yes and Genesis were prog, and JT was for a few albums. Moody Blues were psychedelic pop, Rush was hard rock, Styx was arena rock/AOR. |
What is prog? Doesn't that depend on your definition of the word? According to this site, Rush were heavy prog and MB were psychedelic crossover pop prog, and Styx were (prog related? I don't remember where the site has them). I could say Yes were hard rock, I could say Genesis were symphonic rock. I could say JT were just hard folk.
At any rate, I thought Elf was being sarcastic. |
Sounded to me like sarcasm that was trying to make a serious point beneath it - i.e., "your definition of prog is so strict that prog may as well not exist." Which is of course bullsh*t, because those three bands don't exhibit any of the qualities associated with prog, such as demanding or unconventional song structures. And no, Genesis and Yes could not similarly be reduced away, because they actually do have those qualities.
Anyway, back to lyrics - it seems to me like you're just trying to arbitrarily what is or isn't emotional or "human" and box it in. Music is always going to be human, because as far as we know we're the only ones who can even appreciate it in the sense we think about it. So no, Close to the Edge isn't somehow less human, and many people do find it emotional. I'm tired of this mentality that "it's only human and emotional if it talks about a breakup, or some obvious feeling of sorrow or anger." The whole point of progressive music is to find new modes of expression. Why not have subject matter that's more removed from daily experience? Pop and alt rock seem to have solidified the notion that the pinnacle of human emotion is how a sixteen year old feels after getting dumped, and that anything that deviates from that deviates from being "emotional," which really means "music how I like it and f**k anyone trying to be different wink wink." Tired of the reactionary crap, tired of the chauvinism. Write lyrics about whatever you want. "Real music for real people, no prog allowed!" is crap. Real people listen to prog and actually enjoy its lyrics, imagine that.
If you prefer lyrics that deal with your definition of human and emotional, there's music for you everywhere. At least let us have our little corner where we can do something else for once, because some people consider what you find emotional to be banal, and would not enjoy all music being confined to it. |
You don't even understand why I'm here. You make some irrational assessments of me. You think I think all prog lyrics are bad, and all indie/alt rock lyrics are good. Hell, I hate most indie and alt rock lyrics with a passion. I like half of prog, the half that doesn't focus on the most complicated structures imaginable for the sole sake of being complex. I love the half of prog that isn't based on worshiping Yes or Dream Theater or what have you.
Also, does your definition of prog solely include 'demanding and unconventional song structures'? If so, Rush fits right in with their four song albums and sidelong mutlipart epics and such. Isn't 2112 demanding and unconventional (even if I hate it)? Hell, it's gone full circle and I'm defending Rush. Clearly you are the antichrist.
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Kashmir75
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Joined: June 25 2009
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Points: 1029
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 16:26 |
Utter rubbish.
Are you really saying Britney Spears has better songwriters working for her than, say, Roger Waters' lyrics? And that she has a better knowledge and appreciation of classic literature?
Prog lyrics often make me think and feel far more than any top 40 pop song.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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The Dark Elf
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Location: Michigan
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 16:28 |
1791 Overture wrote:
Alitare wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
No, Yes and Genesis were prog, and JT was for a few albums. Moody Blues were psychedelic pop, Rush was hard rock, Styx was arena rock/AOR. |
What is prog? Doesn't that depend on your definition of the word? According to this site, Rush were heavy prog and MB were psychedelic crossover pop prog, and Styx were (prog related? I don't remember where the site has them). I could say Yes were hard rock, I could say Genesis were symphonic rock. I could say JT were just hard folk.
At any rate, I thought Elf was being sarcastic. |
Sounded to me like sarcasm that was trying to make a serious point beneath it - i.e., "your definition of prog is so strict that prog may as well not exist." Which is of course bullsh*t, because those three bands don't exhibit any of the qualities associated with prog, such as demanding or unconventional song structures. And no, Genesis and Yes could not similarly be reduced away, because they actually do have those qualities. |
Oh, I was being sarcastic, certainly, because your myopic definition of prog borders on rigor mortis.
I don't particularly care for Rush, but I think if you polled the august body of the Prog Archives forum, they would certainly include Rush in progressive rock from the album 2112 onward. Certainly albums like A Farewell to Kings and Hemispheres are as progressive or perhaps more progressive than anything that came out in 1977 and 78 (and certainly akin in sound, compositional structure and song length to Yes' Going for the One which was released at the same time).
As far as the Moody Blues, it is arguable that the album Days of Future Past was the first prog album, or at least one of the first, and the album On the Threshold of a Dream, particularly side 2, is representative of an entire prog suite, complete with symphonic themes and instrumental virtuosity (Pinder's mellotron work is fabulous).
Jethro Tull was prog for a few albums? Which albums exactly? Certainly, I assume you will kindly grant Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play in your exclusive little club, but in addition, I consider Stand Up and Aqualung to be progressive prior to those albums, and Minstrel in the Gallery and Songs from the Wood afterwards. That's about as many "progressive albums" as Genesis and Yes put out with their classical lineups (unless you consider Duke, ABACAB, 90215 and Big Generator to be progressive)
So, saying "those three bands [ie., Rush, The Moody Blues and Styx] don't exhibit any of the qualities associated with prog, such as demanding or unconventional song structures" is incredibly thick, and, might I add, a bit snobbish. Even Styx, who for the most part I loathe, was considered "progressive" for much of its early catalog, with adaptations of Copeland (an entire suite on their first release), Bach, Handel and Debussy interspersed among their first several albums. It may not be considered prog for your exclusive palate, but it is indeed categorized as such on nearly every internet reference I bothered to look up.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 17:12 |
Kashmir75 wrote:
Utter rubbish.
Are you really saying Britney Spears has better songwriters working for her than, say, Roger Waters' lyrics? And that she has a better knowledge and appreciation of classic literature?
Prog lyrics often make me think and feel far more than any top 40 pop song. |
Since when does knowledge and appreciation of classic literature equate to skillful lyricism? Mastodon's Leviathan is based on classic literature, and despite my enjoyment of said album, I detest the lyrics. I can express a deeply felt knowledge and appreciation of classic literature, philosophy, psychology, sociology, theology, history, and mythology all in one poem, but it doesn't make what I write to be excellent. I've already given an example of this, but because I like making these up anyway, here's another.
I sat with Sigmund Freud one eve We sipped upon Mad Hatter's tea And without tricks hid up his sleeve He told me of the Giving Tree
A wondrous, kindred, noble sprite Who loved the child so tenderly And gave the boy, with all his might The will to power, to be free
Then, quickly as I might have guessed He knelt and whispered in my ear 'You'd f**k your mom in Sunday best' My world sunk in Oedipal fear
'But how', I asked in cracking tone 'How would I descend as such?' 'I've half a mind to leave alone And pray for Christ's bright, guiding touch'
'No', he gasped 'Oh please stay a bit' We've much to discuss this ev'ning Life is like a Daedalus pit And love's Sir Theseus, a-string
I hadn't clues to comprehend But then he broke into silence I knew he was always my friend Always my pauper and my prince
He smiled and spoke him not a breath And like some leprosy disease He held his place up under death A seat beneath sword Damocles
And yet I pondered for his cause Was he the engine of the earth? Are beliefs based on astral laws Or flightless words rent from their worth?
And Freud, he hadn't answers yet For I was just a kid back then My heart was filled with cool regret I stared at what was held within
And Sigmund's eyes the shined and gleamed With a last gasp of good advice He said a wise man once had dreamed of foxes of grapes and avarice
His profile grew to staggered height Washington memorial ground The Delaware was one cold night For such a timid vict'ry found And sleep, yon soldier, without fright Your end is an artill'ry round
In this poem I made up in fifteen minutes, I referenced the fable of Damocles, Alice in Wonderland, Sigmund Freud, the tragedy of Oedipus, Objectivism, Friedrich Nietzsche, Aesop's Fables, The Greek mythological tragedy of the Minotaur, Christ and the Bible, Mark Twain, The Giving Tree, and George Washington crossing the Delaware. To top it off, I ended up making a terse statement on the plight of the soldier in general.
My question is: does that hefty and diverse scope of influences ranging from theology, philosophy, history, psychology, literature (classic, classical, childrens, etc.), and war make the damn thing any better?
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 17:23 |
Alitare wrote:
My question is: does that hefty and diverse scope of influences ranging from theology, philosophy, history, psychology, literature (classic, classical, childrens, etc.), and war make the damn thing any better? |
I don't know. Does it have a catchy melody?
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 17:35 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Alitare wrote:
My question is: does that hefty and diverse scope of influences ranging from theology, philosophy, history, psychology, literature (classic, classical, childrens, etc.), and war make the damn thing any better? |
I don't know. Does it have a catchy melody? |
It's set to the tune of The Gunner's Dream, for fun's sake.
Well we both know you and I give a damn about the melodies, but this is about the words. Haven't you heard it's a battle of turds...I mean words? In all honesty, if you take every noun and verb out of Dark Side of the Moon and replace it with the word 'cock', does it affect the melodies? Wouldn't hurt Great Gig in the Sky none.
Cocking around a piece of cock in your old cock, you cocker and cock your cocks in an offhand way. Nope! It's still the same melody. I deeply apologize for that brusque statement, but wahey!
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 18:10 |
Alitare wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Alitare wrote:
My question is: does that hefty and diverse scope of influences ranging from theology, philosophy, history, psychology, literature (classic, classical, childrens, etc.), and war make the damn thing any better? |
I don't know. Does it have a catchy melody? |
It's set to the tune of The Gunner's Dream, for fun's sake.
Well we both know you and I give a damn about the melodies, but this is about the words. Haven't you heard it's a battle of turds...I mean words? In all honesty, if you take every noun and verb out of Dark Side of the Moon and replace it with the word 'cock', does it affect the melodies? Wouldn't hurt Great Gig in the Sky none.
Cocking around a piece of cock in your old cock, you cocker and cock your cocks in an offhand way. Nope! It's still the same melody. I deeply apologize for that brusque statement, but wahey! |
So you ride yourself over the fields,
And you make all your animal deals,
And your wise men don't know how it feels -
To have a cock in his sock.
Hmmm...doesn't have the same emphasis.
I think lyricism is variable, and even the best lyricists don't always exceed expectations on every song, nor is any composer/lyricist trying to be expressly "deep" on every song on a given album. Good lord, what a dreary album that would be!
But there are specific songs that mean something to me, just as other songs may have made some kind of difference in your life. Since you referred to Pink Floyd in your cockfest, I would say that both "Time" and "Wish You Were Here" have lyrics that stir regret in the listener, a sadness and contemplative feeling that is manipulated by a master wordsmith.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Eloy82
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 116
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 18:14 |
prog058 wrote:
This could also be called the Fish appreciation thread.
Prog bands, while excelling musically, are often lackluster in the lyrical department.
Most prog musicians probably don't take an interest in language and literature, and this is probably the reason why.
What are your thoughts?
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I don't care too much for lyrics. Who cares? It's the melody/musicianship that makes the music.
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Eloy82
Forum Senior Member
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Status: Offline
Points: 116
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 18:15 |
You want lyrics? Read a poem. Might I suggest Pablo Neruda?
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 18:22 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Alitare wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Alitare wrote:
My question is: does that hefty and diverse scope of influences ranging from theology, philosophy, history, psychology, literature (classic, classical, childrens, etc.), and war make the damn thing any better? |
I don't know. Does it have a catchy melody? |
It's set to the tune of The Gunner's Dream, for fun's sake.
Well we both know you and I give a damn about the melodies, but this is about the words. Haven't you heard it's a battle of turds...I mean words? In all honesty, if you take every noun and verb out of Dark Side of the Moon and replace it with the word 'cock', does it affect the melodies? Wouldn't hurt Great Gig in the Sky none.
Cocking around a piece of cock in your old cock, you cocker and cock your cocks in an offhand way. Nope! It's still the same melody. I deeply apologize for that brusque statement, but wahey! |
So you ride yourself over the fields,
And you make all your animal deals,
And your wise men don't know how it feels -
To have a cock in his sock.
Hmmm...doesn't have the same emphasis.
I think lyricism is variable, and even the best lyricists don't always exceed expectations on every song, nor is any composer/lyricist trying to be expressly "deep" on every song on a given album. Good lord, what a dreary album that would be!
But there are specific songs that mean something to me, just as other songs may have made some kind of difference in your life. Since you referred to Pink Floyd in your cockfest, I would say that both "Time" and "Wish You Were Here" have lyrics that stir regret in the listener, a sadness and contemplative feeling that is manipulated by a master wordsmith.
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And I appreciate Waters deeply. His Final Cut does stir deep emotions in me, as well as the majority of the band's 1970's output. Lyrically, I adore a vast collection of singer/songwriters and several bands both included in and excluded from this site. As I've said before, I let lyrics enhance a song, but try my hardest not to let them damage a song. I appreciate what Anderson has done, and I appreciate what maudlin of the Well could do. It's a long list I have.
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