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Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
Posted: April 22 2011 at 11:38
Hmmm. I don't know if I agree or disagree with this. It is rather like trying to have it both ways. I already said many roads led there, and there many clues, going all the way back to 1-2-3 specifically, and many others in more suggestive mode. But it's true as you say that Crimson was the breakthrough in the mainstream. Which is what many of us have been saying in any case.
Joined: March 05 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 2133
Posted: April 22 2011 at 12:32
This subject has been discussed many times for many years. Those involved in previous discussions are obviously restraining themselves and not taking part of this latest incarnation of the subject. I suggest you go back to earlier discussions which in my opinion were far better than this one.
Where do you stop with this kind of logic? Of course many roads led to King Crimson, but that was the point where a genre - this genre - was defined.
Established as an album genre, but established as track/song genre long before.
In terms of ideation, conceptualization, development and realization, the genre was well-established long before In the Court, but in terms of commercialization, In the Court was the breakthrough for prog as an album genre.
In the court brought prog into full operation.
The torture, er, "logic" never stops.
Prog rock is / was establishedas an album oriented genre but possibly the , um, genesis of prog rock may have started with the Yardbirds adding a harpsichord on For Your Love in 1964 (annoying their blues purist axe guy - isn't elitism so annoying ) in these rarified circles...). I think the Yardboirds get a bit ignored as they don't have many "proper " albums. Just endless compilations and reissues. Any way this harpsichord may have struck an idea in the minds of the musical many headed.
Oh yeah unearthly prog connection. Giorgio Gomelsky went from managing the Yardbirds to Magma.
As ITCOTCK is referenced by those then I think it's very much the catlyst with a whole lotta records before it paving the way all as progressive as you may or may not want.
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
Posted: April 23 2011 at 03:06
This is the problem with creating a genre/religion; it all becomes precious, great arguments about who is in and who is out, a tendency to confuse obscurity with excellence, to misunderstand complexity and taste.
I enjoy the forum, and the opportunity to discuss bands and records we are both likely to like, but even here, fury takes hold as each devotee pleads their cause and refutes the rights of others.
That problem also manifests itself in the subject of who was first; perhaps there isn't such a thing at all in pure terms. It's an irony that prog people, in general terms, tend to think of themselves as elitist or a cut above the mainstream, as did followers of sometimes mundane jazz generations before, yet the real danger is a lack of understanding that music is music, that an open mind is important, that listening is largely subjective. Each person is entitled to their own taste, whatever anyone else thinks of that. Equally, where prog began for each person is individual, and we as a group can only take an average litmus test when it comes to questions such as this.
Joined: April 23 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 2
Posted: April 23 2011 at 08:47
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
The Beatles - Sgt Pepper's
The Beach Boys - Pet Sounds
Frank Zappa - Freak Out
Bob Dylan - Blonde on Blonde
The rest is not as innovative as most seem to think. These broke major grounds in the music business, where as a lot of the other stuff listed here is ... all talk, by comparison. And KC's first is not a "prog" album ... it's a band in search of a chord/song, albeit it one that was very well rehearsed and defined, which was getting kinda ... lost in the name of rock'n'roll, or some other idiotic concept!
yes, technically the first is beatles/beach boys. progressive just means it evolves which those albums clearly did before anybody gave it a term.
(...sleeping in the traffic...red lights turn to green...)
Joined: July 17 2010
Location: Connecticut, US
Status: Offline
Points: 111
Posted: April 23 2011 at 13:52
I haven't been here for very long, nor I have I posted very much but even I know this question has been brought up plenty of times. The answer is who cares, just sit back and enjoy the music. I don't really care what was first, last, worst, or best, I know what I like and that's all that matters. Use this resource for looking up new stuff you have never heard of.Ok. I am off my soap box now.
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
Posted: May 06 2011 at 10:41
Dr David Bracket a McGil University music professor who specialises in popular music in his book Pop, Rock & Soul says in the introduction for chapter 59 entitled rock me Amadeus which is the chapter on progressive rock that Yesterday by the Beatles was the first progressive rock song because of it's use of a string quartet. He also mentions In My Life ( also by the Beatles ) could also qualify because of the Baroque inspired harpsichord break.
But this is a topic that we can argue until the bloody cows come in and we,re blue in the face. I tend to go with Dr. Bracket.
Joined: April 22 2011
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 112
Posted: May 06 2011 at 11:29
If we are not considering "Days of Future Passed" (1967) a proper prog album, I will suggest the Procol Harum's "Shine on Brigthly" with the remarkable "In Held Twas in I"(1968)
a pure prog thrack.
On the 1969 the prog-boom "In the court of Crimson King", "Areosol and Grey Machine", "Hot Rats", "Stand-Up", "Five Bridges", "Tommy" "Rare Bird" etc I would mention "la buona novella" (1969) by Fabrizio de Andre' too, on
regard of the italian prog. An excellent concept album with already the
features of a prog opera; the first 4 songs of the album could sound such as a
proper suite in 4 movements.
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful
OK, I'm sure this question has been beat to death around here before, but I don't come here often so please don't beat me up about that. Also, please don't beat me up over what a stupid question you might think it is, I actually think its an interesting question.
The question is, what was the first Prog Rock album? I mean "Prog" in the King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Genesis sense of the term. Not pysch, or proto-prog,space rock, or pre-prog.
I have a friend that is nuts over King Crimson. He thinks they are ground zero for everything and the greatest thing ever. I actually love KC a lot too (have almost all their albums/CDs). As a kick I'd like to prove him wrong that In the Court of the Crimson King wasn't the first Prog Rock album. But I can't seem to find another album that came earlier.
Yes, there were earlier albums like Soft Machine's I and II, or Pink Floyd's first couple of albums, or even the first Caravan album, or early Tull. But they don't count for this discussion, they're realy "proto-Prog" or experimental, or art, or psych. Moody Blues and Procol Harum also don't count for this discussion.
I'm talking about that "you know it when you hear it" Gentle Giant, National Heath, Kahn, U.K., PFM, VDGG style Prog that is more than just psych, arty or jazzy. The sort of stuff you hear on KC's first album. Composed Rock, different sections or even songs strung together, played with virtuosity, with some long instrumental passages and long trade-offs and some improv breaks. Prog Rock!
Please give me an example of this type of album that came before KC's "In the Court of the Crimson King"
TAke it easy! Why so defensive? No one thinks it's a stupid question.
First album? Eloy - Dawn. Still the best Prog Album ever.
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What was the first Prog Album?
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earlyprog wrote:
) in these rarified circles...). I think the Yardboirds get a bit ignored as they don't have many "proper " albums. Just endless compilations and reissues. Any way this harpsichord may have struck an idea in the minds of the musical many headed. 
