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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 02:11 |
dr prog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now. |
I never said anything bad about Yes, so why you say I did?
All I'm saying is while Yes are one of my top 10 fave bands, they kind of lost their greatness after 1972 because they dragged out songs to 15 or 20 minutes when there wasn't enough strong composition to fill the song. I see great moments but also holes in Relayer. GFTO isn't bad, but nowhere near the quality of 1970-72. I quite like Tormato because it was back to the shorter songs like Fragile/The yes album. I quite like Tales but I still don't see the need for a double album. Tull was capable of making a 45 minute song without much filler, while Yes would struggle to make a 20 minute song without the same amount of filler. Ian Anderson was such a good composer. He came up with so many good melodic verses/chorses. So many great bonus tracks |
Again, that's not what you were saying earlier so you have changed your stance. And you are again generalizing in the last part. Yes at their best could make an epic, namely CTTE, tighter than any of JT's compositions. It has no filler whatsoever, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion. And even when I don't like TFTO, I don't think they padded out their songs intentionally to stretch them to 20 minutes, it's simply that the material itself isn't that strong. I don't think that is the same thing as padding or noodling at all, whereas you were agreeing to a statement of Anderson that Yes and ELP simply noodled out decent ideas.
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dr prog
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 05:28 |
rogerthat wrote:
dr prog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now. |
I never said anything bad about Yes, so why you say I did?
All I'm saying is while Yes are one of my top 10 fave bands, they kind of lost their greatness after 1972 because they dragged out songs to 15 or 20 minutes when there wasn't enough strong composition to fill the song. I see great moments but also holes in Relayer. GFTO isn't bad, but nowhere near the quality of 1970-72. I quite like Tormato because it was back to the shorter songs like Fragile/The yes album. I quite like Tales but I still don't see the need for a double album. Tull was capable of making a 45 minute song without much filler, while Yes would struggle to make a 20 minute song without the same amount of filler. Ian Anderson was such a good composer. He came up with so many good melodic verses/chorses. So many great bonus tracks |
Again, that's not what you were saying earlier so you have changed your stance. And you are again generalizing in the last part. Yes at their best could make an epic, namely CTTE, tighter than any of JT's compositions. It has no filler whatsoever, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion. And even when I don't like TFTO, I don't think they padded out their songs intentionally to stretch them to 20 minutes, it's simply that the material itself isn't that strong. I don't think that is the same thing as padding or noodling at all, whereas you were agreeing to a statement of Anderson that Yes and ELP simply noodled out decent ideas. |
I haven't changed my stance at all. I never said anything about not liking Yes. I think you had a dream about me knocking them because you are saying stuff i never said and somehow you think I dislike the band. I obviously do like them because i have all their 60s, 70s and early 80s remasters as well as the 20 year box set. I like Yes alot but I like Tull more. Same with Genesis, I like their mid 70s without Gabriel and quite like their Gabriel years although there are some cringeworthy moments from Gabriel which takes some gloss off their 1970-74 period
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 05:33 |
dr prog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
dr prog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now. |
I never said anything bad about Yes, so why you say I did?
All I'm saying is while Yes are one of my top 10 fave bands, they kind of lost their greatness after 1972 because they dragged out songs to 15 or 20 minutes when there wasn't enough strong composition to fill the song. I see great moments but also holes in Relayer. GFTO isn't bad, but nowhere near the quality of 1970-72. I quite like Tormato because it was back to the shorter songs like Fragile/The yes album. I quite like Tales but I still don't see the need for a double album. Tull was capable of making a 45 minute song without much filler, while Yes would struggle to make a 20 minute song without the same amount of filler. Ian Anderson was such a good composer. He came up with so many good melodic verses/chorses. So many great bonus tracks |
Again, that's not what you were saying earlier so you have changed your stance. And you are again generalizing in the last part. Yes at their best could make an epic, namely CTTE, tighter than any of JT's compositions. It has no filler whatsoever, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion. And even when I don't like TFTO, I don't think they padded out their songs intentionally to stretch them to 20 minutes, it's simply that the material itself isn't that strong. I don't think that is the same thing as padding or noodling at all, whereas you were agreeing to a statement of Anderson that Yes and ELP simply noodled out decent ideas. |
I haven't changed my stance at all. I never said anything about not liking Yes. I think you had a dream about me knocking them because you are saying stuff i never said and somehow you think I dislike the band. I obviously do like them because i have all their 60s, 70s and early 80s remasters as well as the 20 year box set. I like Yes alot but I like Tull more. Same with Genesis, I like their mid 70s without Gabriel and quite like their Gabriel years although there are some cringeworthy moments from Gabriel which takes some gloss off their 1970-74 period |
If you did not change your stance and if you really like Yes, care to explain what do you find justifiable about Anderson's disparaging comment about Yes? So, you like taking a decent idea and running with it for a week with piles of noodling, am I to take that as your 'final' stance?
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dr prog
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Joined: September 25 2010
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:03 |
rogerthat wrote:
dr prog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
dr prog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now. |
I never said anything bad about Yes, so why you say I did?
All I'm saying is while Yes are one of my top 10 fave bands, they kind of lost their greatness after 1972 because they dragged out songs to 15 or 20 minutes when there wasn't enough strong composition to fill the song. I see great moments but also holes in Relayer. GFTO isn't bad, but nowhere near the quality of 1970-72. I quite like Tormato because it was back to the shorter songs like Fragile/The yes album. I quite like Tales but I still don't see the need for a double album. Tull was capable of making a 45 minute song without much filler, while Yes would struggle to make a 20 minute song without the same amount of filler. Ian Anderson was such a good composer. He came up with so many good melodic verses/chorses. So many great bonus tracks |
Again, that's not what you were saying earlier so you have changed your stance. And you are again generalizing in the last part. Yes at their best could make an epic, namely CTTE, tighter than any of JT's compositions. It has no filler whatsoever, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion. And even when I don't like TFTO, I don't think they padded out their songs intentionally to stretch them to 20 minutes, it's simply that the material itself isn't that strong. I don't think that is the same thing as padding or noodling at all, whereas you were agreeing to a statement of Anderson that Yes and ELP simply noodled out decent ideas. |
I haven't changed my stance at all. I never said anything about not liking Yes. I think you had a dream about me knocking them because you are saying stuff i never said and somehow you think I dislike the band. I obviously do like them because i have all their 60s, 70s and early 80s remasters as well as the 20 year box set. I like Yes alot but I like Tull more. Same with Genesis, I like their mid 70s without Gabriel and quite like their Gabriel years although there are some cringeworthy moments from Gabriel which takes some gloss off their 1970-74 period |
If you did not change your stance and if you really like Yes, care to explain what do you find justifiable about Anderson's disparaging comment about Yes? So, you like taking a decent idea and running with it for a week with piles of noodling, am I to take that as your 'final' stance? |
Ian is just saying that bands such as Yes and Genesis took it a step too far occasionally. I agree with him. I would like Yes more if they stuck to shorter tunes, but the question is Could Yes continue to produce 10 compositions per album?
Edited by dr prog - April 22 2011 at 06:04
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:09 |
dr prog wrote:
Ian is just saying that bands such as Yes and Genesis took it a step too far occasionally. I agree with him. I would like Yes more if they stuck to shorter tunes, but the question is Could Yes continue to produce 10 compositions per album? |
He didn't say that at all, at least the words used were much harsher. What is a step too far, anything you don't like? As I said, each one is entitled to his preferences but the concept of noodling is not so whimsical. It is clearly a section of music that completely lacks any initiative, does not take the composition forward and lacks much relation to what comes before and after it. You'd be hard pressed to objectively name more instances in the 70s recordings of Yes than JT. Generally, their material is thoroughly composed regardless of whether it's brilliant or mediocre. Moreover, anything that is unorthodox or unconventional like Sound Chaser is not necessarily noodling. JT rely much more on songs than free form and so will tend to be more accessible, but that doesn't mean using free form is in itself a bad idea.
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dr prog
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:36 |
rogerthat wrote:
dr prog wrote:
Ian is just saying that bands such as Yes and Genesis took it a step too far occasionally. I agree with him. I would like Yes more if they stuck to shorter tunes, but the question is Could Yes continue to produce 10 compositions per album? |
He didn't say that at all, at least the words used were much harsher. What is a step too far, anything you don't like? As I said, each one is entitled to his preferences but the concept of noodling is not so whimsical. It is clearly a section of music that completely lacks any initiative, does not take the composition forward and lacks much relation to what comes before and after it. You'd be hard pressed to objectively name more instances in the 70s recordings of Yes than JT. Generally, their material is thoroughly composed regardless of whether it's brilliant or mediocre. Moreover, anything that is unorthodox or unconventional like Sound Chaser is not necessarily noodling. JT rely much more on songs than free form and so will tend to be more accessible, but that doesn't mean using free form is in itself a bad idea. |
Soundchaser is exactly what Ian is probably talking about. A song that starts great but repeats itself for nearly 10 minutes. Becomes a bit annoying by the half way mark. Gates starts off great too, but then you have 5 minutes of effects and the eerie Soon. Nothing beats great melody imo. I expect at least a dozen strong melodies in a great album, not 2 or 3. TAAB has about a dozen great compositions.
Edited by dr prog - April 22 2011 at 06:37
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Snow Dog
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:42 |
ha. Relayer is about ten times better than TAAB.
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Snow Dog
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:43 |
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:45 |
dr prog wrote:
Soundchaser is exactly what Ian is probably talking about. A song that starts great but repeats itself for nearly 10 minutes. Becomes a bit annoying by the half way mark. Gates starts off great too, but then you have 5 minutes of effects and the eerie Soon. Nothing beats great melody imo. I expect at least a dozen strong melodies in a great album, not 2 or 3. TAAB has about a dozen great compositions. |
Those 'effects' are all thoroughly composed and I can clearly discern a direction to the composition. You may be simply unaccustomed to unconventional music. Calling that noodling is, I am sorry, preposterous when the band clearly has intended to build a mood through the so called effect. I don't even think that is what Anderson meant, it seems to be a rather lazy and dangerously generalized comment, probably with an eye to endear his music more to the classic rock audience, which supposedly hates prog.
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dr prog
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 18:00 |
rogerthat wrote:
dr prog wrote:
Soundchaser is exactly what Ian is probably talking about. A song that starts great but repeats itself for nearly 10 minutes. Becomes a bit annoying by the half way mark. Gates starts off great too, but then you have 5 minutes of effects and the eerie Soon. Nothing beats great melody imo. I expect at least a dozen strong melodies in a great album, not 2 or 3. TAAB has about a dozen great compositions. |
Those 'effects' are all thoroughly composed and I can clearly discern a direction to the composition. You may be simply unaccustomed to unconventional music. Calling that noodling is, I am sorry, preposterous when the band clearly has intended to build a mood through the so called effect. I don't even think that is what Anderson meant, it seems to be a rather lazy and dangerously generalized comment, probably with an eye to endear his music more to the classic rock audience, which supposedly hates prog. |
My whole collection consists of prog bands who started in the 60's or 70s so I'm obviously in the right place. But what I love about prog is the composition and I'd never replace composition with experimenting unless I ran out of composition ideas
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twosteves
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Joined: May 01 2007
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 18:09 |
sound chaser and Gates doesn't put me to sleep---but TAAB is a great song to take a snooze to---I used to love it--but it's rambling and a tad boring for me today.
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June
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Location: Montreal
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Posted: April 22 2011 at 19:04 |
colorofmoney91 wrote:
I'm going for Tull. Listening to a whole Genesis album is grating to me. |
This.
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giselle
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Posted: April 23 2011 at 05:20 |
What a weird thing to compare. Like asking who prefers fish to eggs.
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someone_else
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Posted: April 23 2011 at 06:59 |
^Caviar?
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Snow Dog
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Posted: April 23 2011 at 07:02 |
giselle wrote:
What a weird thing to compare. Like asking who prefers fish to eggs. |
It's a simple enough question. What do you prefer fish or eggs. It's answerable.
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jean-marie
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Posted: April 23 2011 at 07:13 |
i PREFER FISH WITH EGGS+ POTATOES WHERE ARE THE POTATOES IN THIS POLL
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: April 23 2011 at 09:53 |
Snow Dog wrote:
giselle wrote:
What a weird thing to compare. Like asking who prefers fish to eggs. |
It's a simple enough question. What do you prefer fish or eggs. It's answerable. |
As I'd say that I like both apples and oranges, but like apples more.
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giselle
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Posted: April 23 2011 at 10:08 |
I'm not against comparisons, but in the case of these two, they are completely different kinds of bands. If for instance you compared Yes and Genesis, I could relate to the question. But Jethro and Genesis? No, not for me, I don't think they're comparable, there's no relation other than them both being rock groups. The question is simple enough if you don't need a rationale other than liking or disliking, preferring or not preferring. Apples and oranges relate to each other better than that - not like apples and coconuts for instance.
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 23 2011 at 10:11 |
giselle wrote:
I'm not against comparisons, but in the case of these two, they are completely different kinds of bands. If for instance you compared Yes and Genesis, I could relate to the question. But Jethro and Genesis? No, not for me, I don't think they're comparable, there's no relation other than them both being rock groups. The question is simple enough if you don't need a rationale other than liking or disliking, preferring or not preferring. Apples and oranges relate to each other better than that - not like apples and coconuts for instance. |
I'd argue that if they were the same kind of band, it would be harder to establish points of difference where preferences diverge. I cannot really say who of Zach Stevens and Russell Allen I like more because they are similar kind of singers with their strengths cancelling off but I definitely like Jeff Buckley more than either, a completely different kind of singer. That both Genesis and JT are progressive rock bands which don't veer too much into freeform or atonality, but with divergent influences, makes them eminently comparable to me. But to each his own.
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Posted: April 23 2011 at 10:20 |
There are a few similarities. "A Passion Play" reminds me a bit of Genesis, due to the thematic material that Tull uses on that album. They both had lead singers who also play the flute, and dressed in costumes. They both refer to medieval lore in their lyrics, though Tull goes further with it. Personally I favor Genesis, but comparing them does not seem like all that big a stretch to me. In fact, I think that they are two Prog bands that are quite similar to one another.
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