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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 10:24
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

I know that energy storage does not exist, except in batteries, sorry i didn't expressed myself well.

"HF filtering does not require the use of heavy, high current cabling"

Heavy cabling is not necessary, it's just that some cables are heavy for other technical reasons, but i've never claimed that you need a heavy and thick cable to filter HF.

What i'm sure is that a 4mm diameter cable instead of 1.5 makes a huge difference for power amp on a dedicated line.

"HF interferance of digital equipment is dealt with by design - nothing would work if it wasn't"

Which doesn't mean that it cannot be improved. And the CD itself reject a lot of high freq into the sytem, that's why a separate line improves a lot.
Whether by mistake, misunderstanding or poor explanation you have made claims regarding heavy conductors and power filtering. However, we can move on from this because it is going nowehere.
 
Speaking from personal viewpoint I believe there is a limit to how much improvement can be made and how much is necessary. CD inject a small amount of HF, the extent of which is controlled by FCC and CE regulations - manufactures generally allow themselves a wide margin between what their equipment radiates and what the regulations permit. I find it incredible to believe that a top-end manufacturer would sell equipment that was detrimental to the sound of any system, especially when such "fixes" are so simple and inexpensive. It is far cheaper to fix the cause of problem at source than it is to try and cure the effects of that problem elsewhere. Now, you may have read that last sentence as total justifrication for all the effort you put into filtering and seperating your power cables, and you would be wrong. You have no means of measuring any of this aledged HF "polution" in your system, you have no means of positively isolating any "polution" in your system to any single cause and you have no means of determining that any one "fix" is the fix for the problem you think you have. Any fix you make that has a percieved improvement is purely subjective, influenced by your desire to want to hear an improvement. You have made this point yourself - blind testing is impossible because your ears get tired - the time difference between hearing your system without the modification and hearing it again with the modification means it is impossible for you to tell the difference between the two listens. This would be true if the improvement was perceptible - much of what you are claiming are imperceptable improvements (or none at all).
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:47
I know that energy storage does not exist, except in batteries, sorry i didn't expressed myself well.

"HF filtering does not require the use of heavy, high current cabling"

Heavy cabling is not necessary, it's just that some cables are heavy for other technical reasons, but i've never claimed that you need a heavy and thick cable to filter HF.

What i'm sure is that a 4mm diameter cable instead of 1.5 makes a huge difference for power amp on a dedicated line.

"HF interferance of digital equipment is dealt with by design - nothing would work if it wasn't"

Which doesn't mean that it cannot be improved. And the CD itself reject a lot of high freq into the sytem, that's why a separate line improves a lot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:41
So in short.

No one disputes Olivers system sounds great. The only dispute is why and whether the sound is "coloured".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:38
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It's amazing how much this is like wine tasting. Every good class I've been to always starts with "If it tastes good to you, it's good." The problem is people won't stop with "I like the way that sounds." They want to pretend it has some objective "betterness" than they can describe. Often what triggers the preference is elusive. 
 

 


It's similar and it's different: some prefer bordeaux, other Bourgogne and you can't argue because it's really a matter of taste.

But everyone who is not dishonest and who listened to the dead, cold and thin mid/high's sound of a wide-bandth solidstate
amplification Vs a good tube amp, believe me, everybody prefers the tube sound.
I can repeat this as often as you can. People like how valves sound - end of argument. That's not "real" and it is not what the studio engineer recorded on the master tape.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:35
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

...because everybody listening to my system or every other real good agree to say that's it's miles beyong everything they ever heard before.
I have read enough details of your system to know that this is a truthful statement. However that is because of the quality of some (not all) of your hardware and some (not all) of the improvements you have made. Some of it is a complete waste of time and energy.
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


My system pushes walls, it's like being at the heart of sound.
"pushes walls"  Confused I suggest you upgrade your walls. LOL
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


It's an achievement when working with Cd source and tht's because of the power, vibration, cabling optimization to say the least.
No. it is to say something. Some of these changes are effective and there is sound logic and reasoning behind doing them, however, reading a lot of what you have written, and suggested to other people, that is not true for every modification or claim you make.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:29
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Dean ple3ase clear your inbox
Embarrassed stop filling it up then Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:29
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It's amazing how much this is like wine tasting. Every good class I've been to always starts with "If it tastes good to you, it's good." The problem is people won't stop with "I like the way that sounds." They want to pretend it has some objective "betterness" than they can describe. Often what triggers the preference is elusive. 
 

 


It's similar and it's different: some prefer bordeaux, other Bourgogne and you can't argue because it's really a matter of taste.

But everyone who is not dishonest and who listened to the dead, cold and thin mid/high's sound of a wide-bandth solidstate
amplification Vs a good tube amp, believe me, everybody prefers the tube sound.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:25
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


I don't have the explanation because the way electrons move into the conductor is something not well undertood yet (it's related to quantiq mechanic, very complex) but it works, the difference is HUGE.

No. Please don't try and bury this under a mire of quantum mechanics or try to blind me with science that you don't understand. If you don't understand it - walk away, but don't make excuses you think no one can argue against. I'll tell you how electrons move in a conductor - very slowly (less than 1m per hour) and very eratically and we understand it perfectly.
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


Coming back to the power filter issue (isolation filter), the peak surge
are taken from the energy stored into the filter itself that's why it's oversized, at least 4x the power of the filtered device)and mostly it filter high freq which are not audible but disturbe A LOT everything in the devices, especially in the numeric field. Power is essential in a device.
Don't. Seriously don't. You really do not understand the principles well enough to state stuiff like this. If you've copied it from some manufacture's website then give me the link.
  • Stortage of AC power is impossible - if it were possible then it would solve all the world's energy problems over night (literally) - filters do not store energy.
  • HF filtering does not require the use of heavy, high current cabling.
  • HF interferance of digital equipment is dealt with by design - nothing would work if it wasn't.
  • Of course power is essential, and 3000W down a 1.6mm² is more than you will ever use or need.

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


As for vibration, a conductor that moves in a magnetic field produces a current, a tiny current that may also disturb a lot depending what conductor is concerned .

LOL Given the field strength of the Earth's magentic field, the length of the longest conductors used in hi-fi equipment  and the distance those wires vibrate then the induced currents you are taking about are measured in atto-amps (1E-18 amps) or less - which in terms of dB is something in excess of -300dB less than the smallest signal in your system.... and before we get carried away in thinking -300dB is twice as small as -150dB, it's not: deciBels are logarithmic -300db is 31 million times smaller than -150dB.
 
No listening device ever created by man or gods can detect -300dB difference in sound levels, including the human ear.


Edited by Dean - April 12 2011 at 09:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 08:45
Dean ple3ase clear your inbox
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 08:38
...because everybody listening to my system or every other real good agree to say that's it's miles beyong everything they ever heard before.
My system pushes walls, it's like being at the heart of sound.
It's an achievement when working with Cd source and tht's because of the power, vibration, cabling optimization to say the least.

Edited by oliverstoned - April 12 2011 at 08:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 08:30
It's amazing how much this is like wine tasting. Every good class I've been to always starts with "If it tastes good to you, it's good." The problem is people won't stop with "I like the way that sounds." They want to pretend it has some objective "betterness" than they can describe. Often what triggers the preference is elusive. 
 
 
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 08:27
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Negoba-->yes the room is very important but better a good system in a bad room than the reverse Dean I’m not qualified enough to reply you on the power chapter.

I'm sure there must be some audiophile out there who is qualified to answer me, and I will happily discuss the point with him.




However qualified he is he couldn't change the laws of physics, so the more qualified he was, the less he would be an audiophile - at least when we use the word in the sense that Oliver does.

The idea of using over-rated power cables must have come from somewhere and I'm curious to know where and why (and not just because I'm an electronics engineer). I cannot think of a single advantage of using heavier cables, especially when the disadvantages are so pronounced - all the plugs and sockets are designed for 1.5mm or 2.5mm cable - this is like putting tyres made for a Range Rover Chelsea tractor on a Citroën C3. Lowly 1.5mm cable is rated at 14A with a max current of 20A ... that's in excess of 3000W continuous power handling.


I don't have the explanation because the way electrons move into the conductor is something not well undertood yet (it's related to quantiq mechanic, very complex) but it works, the difference is HUGE.

Coming back to the power filter issue (isolation filter), the peak surge
are taken from the energy stored into the filter itself that's why it's oversized, at least 4x the power of the filtered device)and mostly it filter high freq which are not audible but disturbe A LOT everything in the devices, especially in the numeric field. Power is essential in a device.

As for vibration, a conductor that moves in a magnetic field produces a current, a tiny current that may also disturb a lot depending what conductor is concerned .

Edited by oliverstoned - April 12 2011 at 08:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 07:36
LOL

^^ It's the simple principle of "bigger is better" - it appeals to common sense, not to technical knowledge. The only problem with common sense when it comes to electronics, physics, chemics etc. is that it can be very misleading, since sometimes the physical laws are counter-intuitive.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - April 12 2011 at 07:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 05:36
Having upgraded to 10mm cables (or whatever is supposedly recommended) here are some cheaper tips for improving the sound of your system:

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techniques/Free_Techniques.html


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 03:03
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


Negoba-->yes the room is very important but better a good system in a bad room than the reverse

Dean

I’m not qualified enough to reply you on the power chapter.
I'm sure there must be some audiophile out there who is qualified to answer me, and I will happily discuss the point with him.


However qualified he is he couldn't change the laws of physics, so the more qualified he was, the less he would be an audiophile - at least when we use the word in the sense that Oliver does.
The idea of using over-rated power cables must have come from somewhere and I'm curious to know where and why (and not just because I'm an electronics engineer). I cannot think of a single advantage of using heavier cables, especially when the disadvantages are so pronounced - all the plugs and sockets are designed for 1.5mm or 2.5mm cable - this is like putting tyres made for a Range Rover Chelsea tractor on a Citroën C3. Lowly 1.5mm cable is rated at 14A with a max current of 20A ... that's in excess of 3000W continuous power handling.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 01:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


Negoba-->yes the room is very important but better a good system in a bad room than the reverse



Dean

I’m not qualified enough to reply you on the power chapter.
I'm sure there must be some audiophile out there who is qualified to answer me, and I will happily discuss the point with him.


However qualified he is he couldn't change the laws of physics, so the more qualified he was, the less he would be an audiophile - at least when we use the word in the sense that Oliver does.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2011 at 11:17
Taking the time to set up side by side comparisons just eats too much into my time to enjoy the music.  I think I did once.  I forgot whatever the hell it was I was comparing. Tongue  I think it was "mp3" vs CD.  Getting two devices set up to toggle back and forth and getting the volume levels equalized was just a hassle.  I moved on.  But hey, it's something for audiophiles to do.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2011 at 11:11
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


Negoba-->yes the room is very important but better a good system in a bad room than the reverse



Dean

I’m not qualified enough to reply you on the power chapter.
I'm sure there must be some audiophile out there who is qualified to answer me, and I will happily discuss the point with him.
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


But i’m logic enough on the « vibration » issue to prove you by
a+b that you’re wrong. My tubes are not microphonic but are
greatly enhanced by one tube damper (silicone ring) , even more
by two dampers ; BTW i use a steel triangle with points below
and counter cones (itself on a specialy selected glass/steel furniture
filled with sand, itself on ceramic cones with carbon/kevlar counter
cones). A tube amp without a steel triangle below or a set of ceramic
cones will have a muddy low and that’s why this accesory is essential
for a tight low and so good sound in general.
That is all very subjective since it is impossible for you do do any side-by-side comparisons on this. Mechanical isolation of the valves does make logical sense if the valves are microphonic, it makes less sense when they are not.
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

You admit that filling my stands with sand will give a tighter low.
Not an admission - a fact. Loudspeakers are mechanical devices - energy put into making the box move is not going into the speaker cone, hence is not convering that electrical energy into sound energy. Since the box has a low resonance frequency by design (tuned to the resonance of the drive units) then it will respond (vibrate) better to low frequences than high. Stoping that box from vibrating will allow more of the electrical energy to be converted into sound, which will result in a better low frequency performance ("tight" does not mean anything).
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

All the other things i do about vib’cancelling on my system are based on the same principle : to lower the resonance frequency (because it’s impossible to cancel it totally) by adding weight on the devices, putting tar sheets inside and several layers of cancelling-vibes under each device. My devices are like in a steel glove to prevent as much vibes as possible.
None of this is necessary - nothing in the system other than the turntable converts mecahnical energy into electrical energy and nothing in the system other than the loudspeakers converts electrical energy into mechanical energy. A "fix" for one problem is not a panacea that can be applied everywhere.
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


I have seven layers of cancelling devices under my devices
(combination of several different accessories) and each layer makes
a huge improvment. Moreover, the more the system works, the more
it produces vibes that disturb many elements into the system.
Eh? what do you mean "the more the system works"?
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:



All devices on the market are provided with 4 poor sorbothane feets which are vibrations traps. The aim of vib' optimization is to let the vibration flow as much as possible.

You can downgrade your device by adding a mouse pad below your feet or upgrade it by putting a set of ceramic cones under. You can negate this simple law of Physics if you like.
I have no problem with the principle, just its application. You cannot negate newton's third law of motion, but you can design for it. However if Newton's third law does not affect the component then no negation is required.
 
Spikes on speakers makes perfect sense as they are creators of mechanical vibration, on turntables absorption is better because they are converters of mechanical vibration. Vibration isolation of purely electrical equipment is pointless.
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:



So saying that thare’s no need to do that because the "god engineer" has designed things as it should be is a very theorical, abstract point of view which has nothing to do with true life.
Not true. The "good" engineer does not design theoretical abstract systems, an engineer designs practical, physical systems that are the result of practical physical testing and listening and are everything to do with real life.
 
The abstract theory is used ot solve problems associated with the design, and this is done by analysis of the problem and its causes, not by subjective perception of its effects.
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Imagine a system with bi amplification, a subwoofer and how low it goes and how much vibrations it produces…all of your devices are affected by these vibrations and it downgrade a lot...that you like it or not.

Yup - if you like it and it makes you feel better then do it. If isolating absolutely everything in your system makes you think it sounds better then I'm not going to argue with you. But make these claims as solid categoric incontrovertible facts and we'll do battle.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2011 at 11:08
People like tubes precisely because the aren't transparent. They add a color that some people like. Same with vinyl over CD.
 
 
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2011 at 10:32
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


 "Transparent" - that means "see-through" ... i.e. it imparts no colouration on the audio signal, but by your own admission your system adds colour because of the harmonic distortion inherent in tube amp design. A tube system can never be transparent - you don't like "transparent".
Exactly - one person's "harshness" can be another person's "crispness". Maybe what Oliver calls harsh is closer to the original signal than the output of his amp, which contains quite some harmonic distortion added by the tubes.

 



Good tube is neutral and has a much better resolution in the highs

compared to solidstate, so it can be qualified as transparent.

Good tube sound is much closer to the real thing: it has the flesh, mateer and precense that solidstate lacks.
Erm. No it isn't. The thermionic valve has a transfer (ie. current to voltage) characteristic that looks like this:
 
File:Kt88pent.gif
and a frequency response that looks like this:
 
Now, you do not have to understand what these graphs mean, the only thing you need to appreciate is that "linear" means "a straight line" and that both of these graphs are "curves". Therefore it is not possible for a valve to produce a linear (straight line) voltage gain or frequency response. These curves mean "distortion", and when you take into account the impedance matching transformer that connects the valve anode to the loudspeaker, that distortion also includes harmonic distortion. Now the thing is with valves, this distortion, when kept under control, sounds really nice because it is predominately odd-harmonic, like a flute sounds nice.
 
You prefer it, and so do I, but that's not the sound the recording engineer put on the master tape.
 
So, there is no way on this green Earth that a valve amplifier can ever be considered "neutral", "transparent" or "closer to the real thing".
 
Also, what does "good resolution in the highs" mean? And how would you describe "bad resolution"? And why would a valve amplifer be better at this than a solid state amplifier?
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