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twosteves 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
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 Posted: March 30 2011 at 18:55 |
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I think Peter Hamill sings like a theatrical Bowie---I don't find it interesting or original at all mainly because it sounds theatrical---screams and all. Early Genesis is for me harder to listen to and understand then Generator and more original. Albums like Trespass, Nursery Crime SEPTP or LAmb are not easy listens---but bottom line--prog for me is about powerful, magical musicians --on guitar, keys, voice, drums, bass---ie. Yes and Genesis to name a few.
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Zargus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 3491
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 18:33 |
 moshkito wrote:
Horizons wrote:
I still can't get into Van der Graaf, sorry.
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If I may make a suggestion ...
You don't "get into" VdGG or Peter Hammill.
Your perception of what music is, and your appreciation of the music changes when you listen to poets like Peter, or Roy Harper ... because for them it is not the music dictating the lyrics (a la top ten and rock'n'roll and most prog), but the other way around ... the instruments are there to augment the sentence or the wording.
It is very difficult at times, and I remember when I first heard "Silent Voice, Empty Stage" and I knew right away ... this is not radio, this is not "hit", this is not pulp music, this is not ... anything that you or I would expect.
Basically, it is no different than, let's say ... a Picasso ... you just appreciate the expression and worry less about the fact that ... not many are going to appreciate it ... until way later, when your ear and your taste changes some and one day ... you go ... wow ... that's really cool ...
Genesis, is much easier to listen to ... wayyyyyyy more conventional and accessible ... so more folks appreciating that is not unusual ... but some folks don't think that Peter Hammill screaming, is considered singing, and at that point the comparison goes down the tubes.
I like Genesis, of course, and have the albums (I stop at Trick of the Tail!), but I can tell you that I have over 50 PH and VdGG albums ... the uniqueness and the expression ... and the ability to do it so much, for so long, and so prolific ... that sometimes it's hard to not think that Genesis, is ... just a rock band ... specially after Peter Gabriel left! And I'm not sure any of us can say that about Hammill or VdGG more often than not. |
Bravo! 
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twosteves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 4095
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 17:28 |
Horizons wrote:
bucka001 wrote:
twosteves wrote:
Horizons wrote:
I still can't get into Van der Graaf, sorry.
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Me either--I wish someone could explain their appeal--to me they very often sound like what a comedy movie would put in a soundtrack if a scene called for prog to be played in the background---perhaps performed by Jack Black. |
Every opinion is worthwhile, but it's interesting that you can make that comment while using Tales From Topographic Oceans as your avatar... the very album that is held up as an example of everything that's wrong with prog by its detractors. The band that wore capes, had twenty banks of keyboards, and a giant opening/closing clam on stage (not that I don't love the live video of Ritual) I think would be a far better fit for a comedy film taking a pot shot at prog! (And by the way, I like a lot of Yes!!!)
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He said that their songs could fit a sountrack, for a comedy that needed prog being played in background. I dont know how the appearance of either band matters. Sounds like hes calling them generic/predictable.
Yes I was saying that---but I didn't mean to offend anyone---or their taste in music. |
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esky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 12 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 643
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 16:30 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Nursery Crime, without question. The problem with VDGG is that they make great musical compositions, but unfortunately there is all that pretentious caterwauling that obliterates the music. |
Whenever anyone uses the word "pretentious" in regards to prog, it comes off rather mamby-pamby. I'd like to say I'm sorry you're not fond of Peter Hammill's singing, but I don't give an f. Do come around, though, won't you?
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34086
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 16:21 |
Negoba wrote:
VdGG and Genesis (with PG) both leaned hard on theater, VdGG much more than perhaps any band I know of.
I HATED Hammill's voice when I first came here and saw all the praised and tried to get into VdGG. But as an actor reciting a drama rather than a singer (though his technique is actually quite good) I was able to appreciate it. I like Godbluff a fair bit.
But classic era Genesis was a band with monsters in every seat, each contributing something different. Nursery Cryme sees them all both pushing themselves but not yet pushing each other aside.
Both great albums. |
that is how I would have expressed it had my English been this eloquente
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 16:06 |
VdGG and Genesis (with PG) both leaned hard on theater, VdGG much more than perhaps any band I know of.
I HATED Hammill's voice when I first came here and saw all the praised and tried to get into VdGG. But as an actor reciting a drama rather than a singer (though his technique is actually quite good) I was able to appreciate it. I like Godbluff a fair bit.
But classic era Genesis was a band with monsters in every seat, each contributing something different. Nursery Cryme sees them all both pushing themselves but not yet pushing each other aside.
Both great albums.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18167
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 15:30 |
Horizons wrote:
I still can't get into Van der Graaf, sorry.
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If I may make a suggestion ...
You don't "get into" VdGG or Peter Hammill.
Your perception of what music is, and your appreciation of the music, changes when you listen to poets like Peter, or Roy Harper ... because for them it is not the music dictating the lyrics (a la top ten and rock'n'roll and most prog), but the other way around ... the instruments are there to augment the sentence or the wording.
It is very difficult at times, and I remember when I first heard "Silent Voice, Empty Stage" and I knew right away ... this is not radio, this is not "hit", this is not pulp music, this is not ... anything that you or I would expect.
Basically, it is no different than, let's say ... a Picasso ... you just appreciate the expression and worry less about the fact that ... not many are going to appreciate it ... until way later, when your ear and your taste changes some and one day ... you go ... wow ... that's really cool ...
Genesis, is much easier to listen to ... wayyyyyyy more conventional and accessible ... so more folks appreciating that is not unusual ... but some folks don't think that Peter Hammill screaming, is considered singing, and at that point the comparison goes down the tubes.
I like Genesis, of course, and have the albums (I stop at Trick of the Tail!), but I can tell you that I have over 50 PH and VdGG albums ... the uniqueness and the expression ... and the ability to do it so much, for so long, and so prolific ... that sometimes it's hard to not think that Genesis, is ... just a rock band ... specially after Peter Gabriel left! And I'm not sure any of us can say that about Hammill or VdGG more often than not.
Edited by moshkito - March 31 2011 at 19:52
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 14108
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 15:25 |
I'm a huge fan of both bands,both are in my top 10. If it had been "H To He Who..." or "Still Life" or "Pawn Hearts" i would have taken VDGG in this poll but... "Godbluff" while a 4 star album(in my opinion) it has never caught on with me as much as "Nursey Cryme" has.
I don't think i voted in the "Pawn Hearts" versus "The Lamb..." poll because i couldn't decide.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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bucka001
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 12:04 |
Varon wrote:
Zargus wrote:
i feel it whuld have been more fair to compere Godbluff and SEBTP, and Nursery Cryme and the least we can do or H to he. Since they are more similar in production and sound and not yet perfect songwritng. Anyway my vote ofc goes to Godbluff one of my favorit prog albums. |
You are right of course but as you see even in that case ( the best VdGG album and third Genesis album according to PA) Genesis wins.
SEBTP or FOXTROT would destroy any VdGG album without competition unfortunately.
I don't like the word "uderrarated" but IMO VdGG are veryvery underrated))))))
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But didn't Pawn Hearts beat The Lamb in a poll here recently?
I don't think any band here is better than another, it's all down to taste obviously. And while I've been having a go at Tales, I do like a lot of Yes... and I can certainly see where people would hate VdGG and that some of the more over-the-top bits [gloriously over-the-top to me!] would make others run for the exits... and even end up in a comedy movie! But the most extreme parts of any prog band could end up in a comedy movie. Take Magma for instance... their whole output could, and yet I love them way more than Yes or Genesis (they're second only to VdGG for me... well, maybe Beefheart is up there as well... Can, also)
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jc
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 11:59 |
Varon wrote:
Zargus wrote:
i feel it whuld have been more fair to compere Godbluff and SEBTP, and Nursery Cryme and the least we can do or H to he. Since they are more similar in production and sound and not yet perfect songwritng. Anyway my vote ofc goes to Godbluff one of my favorit prog albums. |
You are right of course but as you see even in that case ( the best VdGG album and third Genesis album according to PA) Genesis wins. SEBTP or FOXTROT would destroy any VdGG album without competition unfortunately.
I don't like the word "uderrarated" but IMO VdGG are veryvery underrated))))))
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I don't think they are. They have huge support here.
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Varon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 06 2010
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 502
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 11:58 |
Zargus wrote:
i feel it whuld have been more fair to compere Godbluff and SEBTP, and Nursery Cryme and the least we can do or H to he. Since they are more similar in production and sound and not yet perfect songwritng. Anyway my vote ofc goes to Godbluff one of my favorit prog albums. |
You are right of course but as you see even in that case ( the best VdGG album and third Genesis album according to PA) Genesis wins. SEBTP or FOXTROT would destroy any VdGG album without competition unfortunately.
I don't like the word "uderrarated" but IMO VdGG are veryvery underrated))))))
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Would you catch the final words of mine?
Would you catch my words???
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bucka001
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 11:23 |
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I was wrong about VdGG being the one band it's okay to like if you're a 'hip' music dude. Crimson was also cool. (Not that any of that should matter, but that is the way it played out for a long time). Those two bands, especially VdGG, had punk cred at a time when punk had massive cred.
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jc
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bucka001
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 11:19 |
Horizons wrote:
bucka001 wrote:
twosteves wrote:
Horizons wrote:
I still can't get into Van der Graaf, sorry.
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Me either--I wish someone could explain their appeal--to me they very often sound like what a comedy movie would put in a soundtrack if a scene called for prog to be played in the background---perhaps performed by Jack Black. |
Every opinion is worthwhile, but it's interesting that you can make that comment while using Tales From Topographic Oceans as your avatar... the very album that is held up as an example of everything that's wrong with prog by its detractors. The band that wore capes, had twenty banks of keyboards, and a giant opening/closing clam on stage (not that I don't love the live video of Ritual) I think would be a far better fit for a comedy film taking a pot shot at prog! (And by the way, I like a lot of Yes!!!)
Nursery Cryme is a band finding its feet after a major lineup change (not even Stratton Smith liked the album); the group was far more confident on Foxtrot and what came after.
Godbluff is brimming with power and confidence. It's the pinnacle of what VdGG was about at that stage and, for what they were, it's perfection.
If you hate VdGG, then you couldn't vote for them. But respective of what each album was for the bands and their followers, it's no contest. Godbluff all the way. |
He said that their songs could fit a sountrack, for a comedy that needed prog being played in background. I dont know how the appearance of either band matters. Sounds like hes calling them generic/predictable. |
Right. And I'm saying that, given all the vitriol that critical opinion has heaped upon Tales..., that album has done waaaay more to damage the reputation of prog than anything VdGG has (in fact, VdGG are critics' darlings... the one prog band it's "cool" to like according to hipper-than-thou critics and musicians). There are plenty of "golden moments" that you could insert from Tales into an anti-prog comedy (but there are also a few good parts here and there, and Ritual overall is a good tune, as is at least half of The Revealing Science of God). And it didn't sound to me like he was calling VdGG generic/predictable... that would be just bland. It sounds like he was calling them terrible, which (to me, bizarrely enough) is perferable to bland.
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jc
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
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Points: 16952
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 11:08 |
bucka001 wrote:
twosteves wrote:
Horizons wrote:
I still can't get into Van der Graaf, sorry.
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Me either--I wish someone could explain their appeal--to me they very often sound like what a comedy movie would put in a soundtrack if a scene called for prog to be played in the background---perhaps performed by Jack Black. |
Every opinion is worthwhile, but it's interesting that you can make that comment while using Tales From Topographic Oceans as your avatar... the very album that is held up as an example of everything that's wrong with prog by its detractors. The band that wore capes, had twenty banks of keyboards, and a giant opening/closing clam on stage (not that I don't love the live video of Ritual) I think would be a far better fit for a comedy film taking a pot shot at prog! (And by the way, I like a lot of Yes!!!)
Nursery Cryme is a band finding its feet after a major lineup change (not even Stratton Smith liked the album); the group was far more confident on Foxtrot and what came after.
Godbluff is brimming with power and confidence. It's the pinnacle of what VdGG was about at that stage and, for what they were, it's perfection.
If you hate VdGG, then you couldn't vote for them. But respective of what each album was for the bands and their followers, it's no contest. Godbluff all the way. |
He said that their songs could fit a sountrack, for a comedy that needed prog being played in background. I dont know how the appearance of either band matters. Sounds like hes calling them generic/predictable.
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digdug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4707
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 11:02 |
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Nursery Cryme easily for me
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Prog On!
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bucka001
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 11:01 |
twosteves wrote:
Horizons wrote:
I still can't get into Van der Graaf, sorry.
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Me either--I wish someone could explain their appeal--to me they very often sound like what a comedy movie would put in a soundtrack if a scene called for prog to be played in the background---perhaps performed by Jack Black. |
Every opinion is worthwhile, but it's interesting that you can make that comment while using Tales From Topographic Oceans as your avatar... the very album that is held up as an example of everything that's wrong with prog by its detractors. The band that wore capes, had twenty banks of keyboards, and a giant opening/closing clam on stage (not that I don't love the live video of Ritual) I think would be a far better fit for a comedy film taking a pot shot at prog! (And by the way, I like a lot of Yes!!!)
Nursery Cryme is a band finding its feet after a major lineup change (not even Stratton Smith liked the album); the group was far more confident on Foxtrot and what came after.
Godbluff is brimming with power and confidence. It's the pinnacle of what VdGG was about at that stage and, for what they were, it's perfection.
If you hate VdGG, then you couldn't vote for them. But respective of what each album was for the bands and their followers, it's no contest. Godbluff all the way.
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jc
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ThinLizzy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 23 2010
Location: Greece/Athens
Status: Offline
Points: 180
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 08:58 |
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I prefer VDGG to Genesis.
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And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 08:46 |
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Nursery Cryme for me. Brim full of classics.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 08:35 |
Godbluff is the only VdGG album I have and it's got some great moments.
But Genesis is prog for me, and Nursery Cryme is that little gem that took me awhile and now is perhaps my favorite. Ant's writing with Steve's playing. Hungry kids, really superb.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Ruby900
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2009
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 739
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Posted: March 30 2011 at 08:02 |
The Quiet One wrote:
Nursery Cryme, an album that I at first listens thought was weak and overrated, plus the muddy production ruined the good moments.
Now I think it's incredible and as a whole it works greatly, the flow with that production is simply unique. Each song is really good, although obviously different. |
That is what I think too!
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"I always say that it’s about breaking the rules. But the secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place". Rick Wakeman
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Nursery Cryme VS Godbluff
