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frippism 
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 27 2010 Location: Tel Aviv Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
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 Posted: March 20 2011 at 00:37 |
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[/QUOTE] Well no. How can you tell how much time and thought he put into reviewing that album? As a non-English speaker he evidently put a some amount of effort into writing them, and certainly they were as long and as informative as countless other reviews I've read. If we banned everyone who I believed hadn't given enought time and thought into reviewing an album our site would be empty - how anyone can write a review after hearing an album for merely a month puzzles me, that they can write a review after hearing an album once is something I'll never accept - some reviews around here read like the reviewer is writing it as they hear the album for the first time - HOWEVER, we have no such rule and people can put as much or as little effort into writing a review as they like. Similarly we cannot dictate which subgenres and albums a member is not allowed to review, to do that would be wrong - any member can review or rate any number of albums in any subgenre - to impose any rule to the contrary would be wrong - that would be the worse kind of censorship and something that I cannot and will not support.
Nor should we ban them for writing reviews for a subgenre they clearly do not like - to do that would also be wrong. It is impossibe to screw-up a genre by 1-star rating - the mathematics proves that - one member one vote/album - the voting of one member isn't going to affect the consensus vote enough to make a difference. Also, how can you assume that 8 1-star ratings for Genesis would not be unfair but one 1-star review for The Cardiacs is unfair - that does not make sense, if I said that all those 1-star reviews were for Collins era Genesis then some kind of grudge could be construed from that, but that still wouldn't be proof. And even it it was true and could be proven that still isn't breaking any rules or a reason for banning them.
I understand what you're saying and you're right, but that's not what I was saying. I didn't say people shouldn't be allowed to review sub-genres they don't like, how could anyone manage to stop them? I'm saying that if they know they that sub-genre they should refrain from being too critical, or in ahmetbolanyig's case, rate a bunch of albums 1-star. But you're right I guess, there really isn't anything to do about it... even though the lack of thought put into it or the vastness of the ratings definitely infuriates me. I guess people should just be better people... or maybe not that but better prog reviewers.
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 05:55 |
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You really don't have to justify your logic to anyone else but yourself. You are allowed to have your opinion and are allowed to give whatever rating you like to whatever album you like. I probably won't agree with your opinions or your ratings for quite a lot of those albums or your choice of albums to review and rate, but that is permitted too - I'm allowed not to agree with them and if I think that the logic for deliberately down-marking what you consider to be a possible 4-star album by a whole 2-stars is bad then I am allowed to have that opinion and I am allowed say so (by that logic you should knock at least 1 maybe 2 stars off every Yes rating btw). However, you did give your reasons for down-marking and you have repeated that justification here, which only reinforces my view that it is a terrible way to rate an album in my opinion, especially one where you say it is maybe a 4-star album, indicating that you actually agree with the 96 4 & 5 star reviews, the 269 4 & 5 star rating-onlys and the 4.36 average that the album has.
The review weighting of 10 and the collaborator weighting of 20 is designed to overcome the rating-only abuses, no other corrective action is needed. My reviews have a value 20 times more than a rating-only, whether they are worth that is a different question because it assumes that every rating-only is manipulative and I don't believe that they are. I prefer to see the weighting as a means to encourage people to write reviews, not as a means to discourage rating-only, then my glass is half-full.
Anyone who deliberately down-marks a rating because they disagree with the average rating is being manipulative IMO whereas someone who down-marks because they don't like some aspect of the album is perfectly within their rights and is doing nothing wrong. It does not mean that I like what either of them are doing in down-marking an album nor do I have to keep quiet and withold my opinion.
The number of 1-star ratings any one gives to albums by any group or in any subgenre is irrelevant - they are not accumulative, we don't add them up to calculate an average scores for an artist or a subgenre. It does not matter whether you review 1 Texh/Extreme album to 1,000,000 - you have one vote per album and one opinion per album and that is it. If you like or don't like the subgenre then 1 review is the same as 56 reviews and 200 reviews is the same as 1 review.
Finding people who don't like death-growls is not difficult, similarily finding death-growls in Tech/Extreme Metal is also not difficult, so finding someone who gives 1-star to Still Life while 5-staring every other subgenre is hardly a revelation or a surprise.
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b_olariu
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2007 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 5536 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 06:56 |
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I'm agree with Ivan, there is a limit to everything, I myself can log under other name and give to all 1 star albums I don't like, I can to rate 100 in 1 hour, easy. This thing must be stoped, realy otherwhise this PA will turn into nothing but manipulators site, every dude with internet can do that even thay have nothing to do with music and prog more specific. Is a shame because some albums don't desearve to be treated like this, for some looser are nothing but bad rate, to others like me , some releases made history or are dear in some way or another. Just an opinion btw
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 07:05 |
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And I agree with you. Attempted deliberate rating manipulation, (however futile that is, as proven by the mathematics), using multiple accounts is against the site rules and all multiple accounts will be suspended and their raitings/reviews will be deleted. We have admin tools for identifying such abusers and admin tools for dealing with them, we don't give them the right to reply or allow then to justify themselves, we don't give second chances or the benefit of the doubt - once discovered we just delete them.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 07:53 |
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Easy Money
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 07:57 |
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I don't think its the effect on the ratings that bugs people, its having people on the site that are acting in less than honorable ways and taking advantage of other's hard work that bugs the people on the site who have integrity.
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Snow Dog
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 08:03 |
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I agree with you.
Edited by Snow Dog - March 20 2011 at 08:05 |
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14258 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 08:22 |
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Ratings manipulators populate the site but they can be dealt with by deleting their accounts. How hard can it be to "seek, locate, exterminate!" If I were given the power I would ask for a damned good explanation as to why hundreds of albums were rated 1 star and furthermore inform them that they wasted their time as the ratings have no impact. Its the principle that irks me, they are not here for any reason than to cause dissension and need to be dealt with like spammers. We should never be soft on raytings manipulators - who needs them anyway... They are not helping anyone by darkening the site with their stupid ratings.
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member 
Retired Joined: March 04 2008 Location: Retirement Home Status: Offline Points: 3658 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 08:34 |
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That irks me too. So I agree with Easy Money. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 08:43 |
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What it does is cheapen the site and everyone else's reviews by association. I agree that we should rid the site of these arseholes, but as long as they are operating within the rules there is little we can do. If we start enforcing some rigid policy of deleting rating-only accounts based on voting patterns then we run the risk of deleting valid and honourable accounts - other members and Admins may be comfortable with that, I am not.
If it can be proven that the "abuser" has not heard any of the albums they have rated then that's all well and good, but no one can prove that, all we can do is guess and make assumptions. I'm not going to suspend anyone or delete any rating based on a feeling or a suspicion. I have no regard for anyone who deliberately abuses the ratings whoever they are and I'm not being obtuse in not banning anyone based on the perceived evidence of a 481 1-star ratings - it's an indicator and reason to look deeper, but it is not proof positive. 481 1-star ratings gave cause to look at his account, the discovery of multiple accounts was the proof needed to ban him.
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toroddfuglesteg
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Retired Joined: March 04 2008 Location: Retirement Home Status: Offline Points: 3658 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 08:47 |
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Do we really need this give-the-admins-heartattacks option in PA ? We can debate until the cows comes home, but would it not be better to act ? Hence my thread in the collabs zone to move this matter from roundtable talk to a no-fly zone.
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 08:56 |
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I agree.
We are not soft on rating manipulators once we have irrefutable proof. Bring me the proof and they are history.
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Easy Money
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 09:31 |
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Define what you consider to be "proof" that you want people to bring. I thought Silebar was pretty obvious.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 11:17 |
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Honestly, I don't know or care if if they succeed or not in a manipulation or even if they are manipulating, in the best case the guys are trolling, and that's as bad as manipulating.
Now, we don't need to draw a line, every case must see on individual bases as a court does, simply the Adms can evaluate the behavior and decide if the person is clearly doing something incorrect. In this case a guy who never wrote a single post and out of 156 ratings (blending Prog Metal and Tech Extreme Metal), has rated 152 with 1 star, this is clear, the guy is manipulating, trolling or at least lying, because as Dean said, nobody is that stupid to buy 152 albums from a determined genre that he hates (it's obvious he's not a fan of Metal). In other cases, the Adms should also evaluate the individual behavior. Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 11:42 |
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Anyone who deliberately down-marks a rating because they disagree with the average rating is being manipulative IMO whereas someone who down-marks because they don't like some aspect of the album is perfectly within their rights and is doing nothing wrong. It does not mean that I like what either of them are doing in down-marking an album[/QUOTE] Sorry Bob, but this is a direct mention and I have to reply it. I NEVER .down-marked an album as you accused me in your first reply. I don't care for the average of ratings, if 1 million persons think an album is great and I consider it terrible, i have no problems or fear to rate it with 1 star, the same happens if an album has a low average and I consider it a masterpiece...In that case I will give 5 stars without any problem or shame. This doesn't mean I want to take an album down or boost it, it's always my honest and personal opinion.
Then you are making my point, we believe the album has been ruined by the growls, and this doesn't mean we are down-marking it., we are just giving our honest opinion. I never said that I rate an album low because it has a high average, by the contrary, I repeated 1'000,000 times that the word overrated is absurd, because an album has the average it deserves, even if I hate it. Iván
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 13:24 |
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That's down-marking because of the death-growls and for no other reason. I never accused you of down-marking to reduce the average rating, but have it whatever way you like. I could care more if I wanted, but I don't.
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 13:25 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 13:33 |
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Please Dean understand it, the vocals are one of the most important elements of an album, if the vocals suck, the album is ruined. I can't separate the growls from the music, because they are both INTEGRAL parts from a final product. A chariot runs at the speed of the slowest horse, and in this case the slowest horse are the vocals, those sounds destroy everything. Iván
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13795 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 13:35 |
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I've written to Obama, Cameron, and Sarkosy, requesting an urgent UN resolution to deal with THE real issue facing our beloved planet at the moment.
Yep, an immediate no-fly zone to deal with all ratings manipulators. That should do the trick
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 13:55 |
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I'll say this one more time - you can give whatever rating you like for whatever reason you like - I don't have to like it nor do I have to agree with it. You can justify it to yourself until Torodd's cows come home, it will make no difference to me. You used this review as an example of how it is better than a rating-only because you give your reasons - from my perspective your reasons make it worse. Edited by Dean - March 20 2011 at 14:07 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: