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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2011 at 08:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2011 at 06:48
Just a quick run-down of only those cases that are considered major problems over the last 50 years. I really don't know how this can be considered safe technology.

It doesn't matter whether the faults concern the actual reactors, or non-nuclear components, the whole component interaction is a vital consideration, combining human as well as technical factors. It is NOT an argument that in Japan the fault does not lie with the reactor but the cooling system, it's a nuclear plant as a whole that has to be considered.

If just one of those components fails in a crucial combination of circumstances, the failure consequences are enormous.

September 1957: Majak, Soviet Union: Radioactive waste container explosion. 1000 people dead immediately, 10000 people contaminated, 120000 people relocated, 12000 square miles unusable

October 1957: Windscale (Sellafield), UK: Radioactive cloud spread over Europe

January 1977: Grundremmingen, Germany: Reactor building completely unusable after being flooded with radioactive cooling water

March 1979: Three Mile Island (Harrisburg): Human error leads to partial meltdown 200000 evacuated, radioactive cloud escaped

April 1986: Chernobyl: 32 people dead immediately, 120000 people displaced, thousands contaminated

September 1999: Tokaimura, Japan: Radioactive cloud escaped after incorrect usage sets off a chain reaction

December 2001: Brunsbüttel, Germany: Vast hydrogen explosion without fatalities in nuclear power plant

July 2006: Forsmark, Sweden: Short circuit leading to emergency shutdown without fatalities in nuclear power plant

2006: Telelin, Czeckeslovakia: Has set off over 100 hazardous incident alarms up until the year 2006

July 2009: Kruemmel, Germany: Emergency shutdown in nuclear power plant after fire caused by electrical fault.

 

In most above cases the long-term consequences are unknown.

In 50 years these are far, far too many cases. No way is this technology reliable and controllable.

Do you feel lucky, Punks?



Edited by npjnpj - March 14 2011 at 07:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2011 at 03:01

Japan is earthquake country, a condition that Europe is not effected by.

I agree that that particular risk is negligible in Europe. So what are the possible risks?

- Any other possible nature occurrences? I don't believe so.

- Any external accidents? Ah, that old airplane crashes into nuclear plant argument. Not really, I would think. As there are masses of other area where a plane could accidentally crash, the likelihood seems very remote indeed.

- What about technical and safety standards? Well, a bit shaky here, I would think, especially regarding older plants that are well over 30 years in existence now. Not a comforting thought, especially as the emergency cooling systems are well below par by now. Many of the old reactors have a technical level that would fail standards, if they were to be considered for initial approval.

- What about malevolent external influence? This is where I get VERY VERY worried. A lot. A nuclear power plant as target of a terrorism strike seems not unlikely (to say the least). Far fetched? A few years ago I would have agreed. At that time the thought of a few bozos collapsing a pair of skyscrapers in New York, killing several thousand people would have appeared unlikely too. But as a terrorism target in the West, would seem more appropriate? Especially as I see no particular security efforts made in this direction. In my view highest security measures in nuclear power plants would seem much less paranoid than they do in airports. If I were a terrorist, that's where I'd strike. And this is my concern number one.
These people have shown on an almost daily basis that lives don't mean anything to them, in fact the higher the death toll the better. One of those attacks will get through and the ones of us who are left will have to deal with the consequences.

So yes, nuclear power plants in the West are a high risk factor, and I'm sure that sooner or later an attack will succeed and we will have a nuclear catastrophe here, if things don't change. With here I mean anywhere in the West. Any other view would, in my opinion, be sheer reckless optimism.



@ Henry: "Well yes, if you don't believe anything said then I can't really argue with you."

I can't believe you mean that. In consequence that would mean that you can only argue with people who also believe all they are told. That would be pointless, as you'd all be of the same opinion anyway. Apart from that it's your choice, of course, but I for one am very suspicious of things I am told, especially by official parties who's allegiance with parties of purely economic interests (often identical) can't be denied.

 Surely you can't deny that most political authorities have been caught with their trousers down countless times and more. So how can you still believe them, especially in times of a gargantuan crisis?

And that figure of a possible crisis perhaps once every 10000 years was part of the official political propaganda during the early '80s at the hight of nuclear protests, printed and broadcast in all the main media. I'm sure many here remember that. Come to think of it, it was issued by the people we should, according to you, trust. LOL

Just out of interest; I had assumed that that figure appies to all nuclear power plants combined. If it applies to all roughly 500 individual ones in existance and under construction, that would make the likelyhood of a major nuclear incident rise to once every 20 years! Now that seems more realistic although possibly a trifle worrying.


According to the newest BBC report:

"But the US military, which has been helping the relief effort, said it had moved away from the area after one of its aircraft carriers detected low-level radiation about 100 miles (160km) offshore."

What a load of bollocks! Am I really being told that a US carrier is abandoning / postponing / repositioning a humanitarian relief effort because of some low level radiation which naturally  must be much stronger near the source? Sounds to me as if they're not going anywhere near the place except if they can find somewhere to do so safely. If the statements of the authorities concerning radiation levels were true, why would a carrier turn back when faced with only the expected amounts of radiation? Then it shouldn't have gone there in the first place.

Ok, now let’s think this through. An aircraft carrier is turning back, away from the source because of low level radiation. The authorities tell us that the source of the radiation shows practically normal levels. Assuming that were true, it might be that the carrier is inside a low level radioactive cloud that is moving away from the source. If that were so, it would make more sense to move towards the source and not away from it, thereby travelling through the cloud to leave it behind. Moving away from the source would mean staying inside the cloud for an unnecessary amount of time.
As the carrier has chosen to turn about, it can only mean that the source is highly contaminated, contrary to what is said by those we are supposed to be trusting.

At the same time, there are higher levels of contamination reported from the Onagawa nuclear power plant about 120 miles away, that is also having cooling problems. This radiation though, according to the authorities, is probably due to the contamination that was transported by the wind from Fukushima. Is this a different contamination from the one the US carrier is effected by? In how many directions does the wind actually travel simultaneously in Japan?


So much for the believability of official sources then, Henry.  Confused




Edited by npjnpj - March 14 2011 at 05:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2011 at 01:58
Miyagi Pref. Government has announced that over ten thousand people might have been killed in this earthquake / tsunami. Cry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2011 at 01:54
We can never know "by ourselves" if there's radiation leakage or not in Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Plant ... Ouch
We cannot do anything except believing the announcement by Government that no leakage was confirmed or determined ... sadly. Cry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2011 at 01:49
Utter devastation: Miyagi prefecture was one of the areas hardest hit by the tsunami (AFP: Mike Clarke)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 23:47
It's a good thing no country has ever used nuclear energy safely. Otherwise, well, this might just be a really dumb argument.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 23:39
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:


Sorry, Henry, but in my view anybody believing government statistics based on dubious government assurances about risk assessment is a fool.
The fact that the Soviet Union f**ked up does not invalidate everything after that point. I have no idea what the source of the 10,000 years "statistic" is, but that is so vague it was obviously meaningless even at the time you heard. It is true that many reactors are "old" because of the expense of building new ones, but they are still very much not Chernobyl. Germany is hardly at risk for an 8.9 earthquake.

And again, if you are not willing to accept information that contradicts the opinion you've already formed then I can't really discuss this with you.

On a lighter note, there are some people with opinions on Youtube.


Edited by Henry Plainview - March 14 2011 at 01:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 23:28
We were all told that (not that far back) that the risk of a major nuclear accident was so low, that if at all it would happen perhaps once every 10000 years.

Well, considering Harrisburg, Chernobyl and now possibly Japan in the last few decades, the world ist just either incredibly unlucky or possibly the odds were slightly laundered?

The argument about new technology being much safer isn't really valid, as most of the old-style reactors are still in place and plans for the continuation of their duty are being made at this moment (Germany, for instance).

Sorry, Henry, but in my view anybody believing government statistics based on dubious government assurances about risk assessment is a fool.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 13:54
Well yes, if you don't believe anything said then I can't really argue with you. As I understand it, it's not even the reactor that is the problem, it is that the diesel fueled backup coolant system failed because of the tsunami/quake, but I might be wrong.

And there are other technologies that are even safer and create far less waste than light water reactors, but people get all booga booga anyway because RADIATION. Not that a massive earthquake in Japan has any bearing on the safety of a reactor in the American midwest, but whatever....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 13:49
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Rivertree Rivertree wrote:


What about the research for regenerative energies? They go easy on that. Nuclear power is safe? Promotion and lies are closely remoted - Chernobyl, and now just look at Japan Angry
Does it not matter to you at all that Chernobyl's design is completely different from any modern reactor and there has been no radiation leakage in Japan?


how can you be sure? Do you really trust the official statements? I do not!




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 13:43
Originally posted by Rivertree Rivertree wrote:


What about the research for regenerative energies? They go easy on that. Nuclear power is safe? Promotion and lies are closely remoted - Chernobyl, and now just look at Japan Angry
Does it not matter to you at all that Chernobyl's design is completely different from any modern reactor and there has been no radiation leakage in Japan?


Edited by Henry Plainview - March 13 2011 at 13:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 13:39
to rely on nuclear power currently is the most profitable alternative for the energy companies worldwide, simple as that ... the risk, costs aso are passed on to the population/society though.

What about the research for regenerative energies? They go easy on that. Nuclear power is safe? Promotion and lies are closely remoted - Chernobyl, and now just look at Japan Angry




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 01:48
I think it very possible that the reason that alterative energy sources are only able to deliver such a small part of the overall required energy supply is that only a tiny fraction of the expenditure pumped into fossil and nuclear fuels goes to their research and development.

Evidently interests don't really lie there. I wonder why that would be and who might possibly be behind that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 00:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 00:02
I meant all three of those adjectives in conjunction. ;-) I am in favor of researching alternative energy, but as it stands none of those can come even remotely close to meeting our current demand. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 23:48
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

Well, the risks including possible earthquakes were known and taken into consideration in whether to pursue this technology or not. It was considered acceptable. A gamble, if you will.

Just because the wrong number just came up, it won't change anything because the acceptable risk criteria haven't changed (yet), and we can all only hope that they will, for all our sakes.

Personally, I don't think this tragedy will change anything though. The Chernobyl shock sort of petered out after a while, and so will this. The world is a place run by people who put economic before humanitarian principles, and always will. There will be the usual sympathy noises around the world and then we'll go back to business as usual.

It's sickerning!
Nuclear power is the safest, cheapest, most efficient form of power currently available. I consider myself more or less an "environmentalist", but the environmentalist opposition to nuclear power is incredibly frustrating. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the irrational fear of nuclear power expressed in this thread and in the greater population is never going to go away, even though Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island were decades ago and clearly have no relevance to modern reactors, and it's going to be too late to replace oil with another form of power before we realize how silly and NIMBY we have been.

I don't see how you can say we got lucky when one of the largest earthquakes in recorded history struck Japan and there has been no containment issue. That is the result of good planning and design.
You apparently have nukular power confused with solar, wind, geothermal, and hydro power.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 22:05
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

Well, the risks including possible earthquakes were known and taken into consideration in whether to pursue this technology or not. It was considered acceptable. A gamble, if you will.

Just because the wrong number just came up, it won't change anything because the acceptable risk criteria haven't changed (yet), and we can all only hope that they will, for all our sakes.

Personally, I don't think this tragedy will change anything though. The Chernobyl shock sort of petered out after a while, and so will this. The world is a place run by people who put economic before humanitarian principles, and always will. There will be the usual sympathy noises around the world and then we'll go back to business as usual.

It's sickerning!
Nuclear power is the safest, cheapest, most efficient form of power currently available. I consider myself more or less an "environmentalist", but the environmentalist opposition to nuclear power is incredibly frustrating. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the irrational fear of nuclear power expressed in this thread and in the greater population is never going to go away, even though Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island were decades ago and clearly have no relevance to modern reactors, and it's going to be too late to replace oil with another form of power before we realize how silly and NIMBY we have been.

I don't see how you can say we got lucky when one of the largest earthquakes in recorded history struck Japan and there has been no containment issue. That is the result of good planning and design.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 19:16
Quake zone map
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 17:44
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Well, even if there is no meltdown, this will certainly cause a lot more sentiment against nuclear plants around the world.
Clap

I have no problem with nuclear power as long as those making the money off of it are willing to bear the consequences and store the waste in their own backyards.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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