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Topic ClosedGreg Lake’s rant against bootlegs and piracy.
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 18:34
Originally posted by Intruder Intruder wrote:

That fat futhermucker has some nerve.....he and E and P have stolen dollars from my pocket and hours from my life with that pompous drivel they've put out over the years.  Those "Beat the Bootleggers" boxes they've put out sound like they were recorded underwater but they still charge full boar for them.
 
Fat hypocrite....maybe we should actually have pity on him, he's obviously a dim-witted fellow that's had a whole lotta luck over the years.  The best thing he's ever done was someone else's creation.

Nobody put a gun in your head and forced you to buy any album or box, they made an offer and you accepted it..You got what you paid for.

Iván
            
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 18:36
Well said Ivan.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 18:40
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Nobody put a gun in your head and forced you to buy any album or box
You never know. Tongue
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 19:22
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

There are no grey areas, it's pristine clear that the author or copyright holder own the EXCLUSIVE right to tape, film or photograph a performance, they are free to allow third parties to do the same or not.

Iván

 

Er, it is a grey area from the ARTIST's perspective, sir, because he should by all rights be annoyed with the fan in my hypothetical example and sue him because his legal rights have been abused but he might react emotionally to the situation and forgive the fan. This is what I meant by grey area. And by the way, allowing people to infringe copyright, which is what I have described here, and granting use of it to THEM for a consideration are entirely different situations and your responses to both this point and the one above re photos would typically apply to the latter situation.  
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 20:31
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

There are no grey areas, it's pristine clear that the author or copyright holder own the EXCLUSIVE right to tape, film or photograph a performance, they are free to allow third parties to do the same or not.

Iván

 

Er, it is a grey area from the ARTIST's perspective, sir, because he should by all rights be annoyed with the fan 

Not necessarily, some artists value much more the publicity than the copyright of a determined show....but that's their decision to make.

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Points: 417 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 11:37
Putin' aside the anal-copyrights' defenders, bootleging without profit is a valuable exercise. The greatest shows I've ever heard from my favorite bands weren't recorded or released and without the bootlegs we can't even know about them.

How can we know what was the Pink Floyd's 'The Man & The Journey" concerts without the bootlegs? Reading the description of the concert "(The show starts with what would become Grantchester Meadows, then...") can't lead me any closer of the full piece.

I really love the web and the dozens of great guys that share for free their bootlegs. I'm not a fan of selling boots; I didn't qualify it as illegal but I think it is unfair. Take the example of the wondeful Progressive Rock Remasters Project (PRRP) and their incredible work in mixing classic bootlegs the best way they can: They do this for free, earning the love and respect from their fellow music lovers, that appreciate music in the first place.

And the cultural industry was really affected by the downloading but I never know about tours and/or shows being
negativelly affected by this. And that is the main source of income to the artists (at least those in activity).

BTW: After hearing a lot of boots I can't listen to an official show the same way as when I had innocent ears. If you want to know how our fav band is/was alive, listen to a good boot. End of story.

BTW 2: Now that my boy is 2 I just read topics one day or another. But the way this Moshkito (or whatever) guy was bashed for his writing and opinions (a little hard for the common viewer, but very realistic when talkin' about the regular prog lover and his superiority complex ) shows that for a lot of people what we, non-English speakers, are in their views: rude barbarians that dare to talk to their wise lords.

Sorry for the bad English, Buana.
Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante.
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Points: 5575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 11:41
Originally posted by moodyxadi moodyxadi wrote:

Putin' aside the anal-copyrights' defenders, bootleging without profit is a valuable exercise. The greatest shows I've ever heard from my favorite bands weren't recorded or released and without the bootlegs we can't even know about them.

How can we know what was the Pink Floyd's 'The Man & The Journey" concerts without the bootlegs? Reading the description of the concert "(The show starts with what would become Grantchester Meadows, then...") can't lead me any closer of the full piece.

I really love the web and the dozens of great guys that share for free their bootlegs. I'm not a fan of selling boots; I didn't qualify it as illegal but I think it is unfair. Take the example of the wondeful Progressive Rock Remasters Project (PRRP) and their incredible work in mixing classic bootlegs the best way they can: They do this for free, earning the love and respect from their fellow music lovers, that appreciate music in the first place.


I agree with this 


Edited by topographicbroadways - March 12 2011 at 13:43
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 12:35
Originally posted by moodyxadi moodyxadi wrote:

Putin' aside the anal-copyrights' defenders, bootleging without profit is a valuable exercise. The greatest shows I've ever heard from my favorite bands weren't recorded or released and without the bootlegs we can't even know about them.

How can we know what was the Pink Floyd's 'The Man & The Journey" concerts without the bootlegs? Reading the description of the concert "(The show starts with what would become Grantchester Meadows, then...") can't lead me any closer of the full piece.
Full recordings of The Man & The Journey do not exist, even as bootlegs - all Pink Floyd concerts at that time were "subject to change" so no two concerts were ever the same, TM&TJ was a work in progress that was later abandoned, much like Embryo - another peice that changed and grew with every performance. There are a couple of boots that are snap-shots of that development, but the set-list and running orders are not the same.
 
Originally posted by moodyxadi moodyxadi wrote:



I really love the web and the dozens of great guys that share for free their bootlegs. I'm not a fan of selling boots; I didn't qualify it as illegal but I think it is unfair. Take the example of the wondeful Progressive Rock Remasters Project (PRRP) and their incredible work in mixing classic bootlegs the best way they can: They do this for free, earning the love and respect from their fellow music lovers, that appreciate music in the first place.

And the cultural industry was really affected by the downloading but I never know about tours and/or shows being
negativelly affected by this. And that is the main source of income to the artists (at least those in activity).
Some artists like it, some don't; some artists encourage it, some don't some artists are dead against it, some aren't. There is no general opinion.
Originally posted by moodyxadi moodyxadi wrote:


BTW: After hearing a lot of boots I can't listen to an official show the same way as when I had innocent ears. If you want to know how our fav band is/was alive, listen to a good boot. End of story.
That's a matter of opinion - soundboard boots are okay but there are thousands of boots out there that are just plain dreadful. At least with an official live album you get to hear what the artists believe their live shows sound like.
Originally posted by moodyxadi moodyxadi wrote:


BTW 2: Now that my boy is 2 I just read topics one day or another. But the way this Moshkito (or whatever) guy was bashed for his writing and opinions (a little hard for the common viewer, but very realistic when talkin' about the regular prog lover and his superiority complex ) shows that for a lot of people what we, non-English speakers, are in their views: rude barbarians that dare to talk to their wise lords.

Sorry for the bad English, Buana.
Dead really, this is borderline racism and not what we expect from people posting here. If this is what you truely believe then you are mistaken.
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Points: 10618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 18:48
Originally posted by moodyxadi moodyxadi wrote:

BTW 2: Now that my boy is 2 I just read topics one day or another. But the way this Moshkito (or whatever) guy was bashed for his writing and opinions (a little hard for the common viewer, but very realistic when talkin' about the regular prog lover and his superiority complex ) shows that for a lot of people what we, non-English speakers, are in their views: rude barbarians that dare to talk to their wise lords.Sorry for the bad English, Buana.


I don't necessarily agree with you, but I see how you could get that impression.
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Points: 13065 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 18:58
Hmmm...I would think, at this point in his career, that Greg Lake should consider himself lucky that fans even attend his shows. And I certainly hope there are reinforced trusses under the stage to support his tremendous girth.
 
I consider youtube a tremendously important resource in finding new music. I've bought countless CDs based on exposure to unfamiliar (or forgotten) songs I've found there.
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Points: 10618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 19:14
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Hmmm...I would think, at this point in his career, that Greg Lake should consider himself lucky

yes indeed, he is one Lucky Man.
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 19:35
Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

Here it is in full for those who aren’t members:

 

‘’Anyone taping shows and then distributing them to the general public is stealing. The fact that they are apparently giving these things away or "sharing them" as they sometimes like to put it is absolutely no excuse.

They are simply depriving the rightful owner of his or her rights. In the case of songs and books etc these are called "copyrights".

I suppose when this does happen it is done in a sort of Robin Hood spirit of "steal from the rich and give to the poor".

Well there are two things I would say about this.

Firstly, any performance created by an artist belongs to that artist, it is simply a property that belongs to the person who created it.

The second is, and I know this may be hard for some of the more intellectually challenged to grasp, but artists can only live and continue to create if they are paid for the work they do.

If this work is stolen and then distributed for free then artists will eventually have to stop producing.

Now it may be true that some artists are very successful and therefore make a great deal of money, but that is simply what happens in a democracy and surely that is still part of the good old American dream.

You couldn't justify stealing a computer from a store just because Gill Gates happened to be rich and the same should apply to songs and music in the same way.

The idea that everything belongs to everybody is basically communism which quite frankly has been proven not to work.

Ownership of intellectual rights, (that is songs or literature or paintings etc) is no different to anything else created by someone's hard work and endeavour.

The recording from a performance is a product pure and simple and make no mistake when you steal that product you are committing a crime. Even if you later decide to throw it, or give it away.

So all I would say to anyone who intends to tape my songs or ELP live etc and then sell them or give them away on You Tube etc, do be careful to keep your name and address a closely guarded secret because I or ELP will have no hesitation whatsoever in commencing legal proceedings against you for the recovery of our property or compensation for the loss plus any damages.

And again, to anyone so inclined, please do bear in mind that it is easy these days for anyone to track and identify an individual computer by its unique ID number.

Greg Lake.’’

What a load of Tosh!
 
Listen, Lake and anyone who agrees with this nonsense, most bands would be happy for the exposure on youtube. I for one make youtube clips for various songs I like, not ELP, and I doubt I will bother, but I have youtubed my own slide shows for several bands, some are popular, Yes, Rush, Genesis, some not so much, Total BS, Ether's Edge, Persephone's Dream, and many people have commented how they had never heard of the band and are now going to buy some of their albums. I believe its a form of free promotion and never harms anyone. Admittedly some people post entire albums on youtube, just the album cover, no slides to view, but what's wrong with listening before you buy? I love the fact you can try before you fork out your hard earned bucks as it takes the mystery out of buying a lemon, such as Love Beach!
 
I have had feedback from certain artists who have seen my clips of their work, made in love for the music nothing else, and those artists have thanked me for taking the time to post their music, they are grateful - many people commented on my channel that they enjoyed discovering new prog - so who's losing out here?
 
So Mr Lake, get your head out of your tarkarse and wake up and smell the coffee. Technology can work for you not against you. The amount of people now going to shows and recording some songs from the audience is phenomenal but how are you going to stop it? Confiscate everyone's phone? Good luck! Just accept whats happening and embrace it. ELP will gain greater exposure for every post on youtube creating more fans than when the band was actually still together.
 
 
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Points: 13065 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 19:37
Where were the thieves in ancient times
Who trampled upon my pounds so green?
And was the holy copyright
Enough to protect my concert scenes?
 
And then technology produced in time,
A slew of digital video cams --
And on youtube now I'm replayed,
Without consent, I feel that I've been scammed!
 
Bring me accountants all counting gold,
Bring me attorneys I desire,
Bring me a suit without delay --
To burn these films in a funeral pyre!
 
I will not cease to sue in court,
Nor shall my lawyers stop their demands!
Till I have filled my bank accounts
From money won from stupid, thoughtless fans!
 
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to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Points: 10618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 19:45
^ although I sympathize with Mr Lake, that is brilliant !   
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 20:01
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:

Breaking news:

Researchers discover how to erase memory

www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-erase-memory.html


If Greg Lake finds out this, we're doomed. You paid for a ticket for a 2 hour concert, you don't have a right to remember it or tell impressions to your friends. That specific cluster of organized neuron cells in your brain is Greg's property.




I wonder if they can erase the memories of an Angelwitch gig I once attended?
Hey i would gladly swap your Angelwitch concert for my experience seeing Bob Dylan live 10 years ago.
Good ol Bob said nothing to his audience. Not even, Hi.  I went down the front with the other BD fanatics to rev him up a bit, he looked wasted,  and we even screamed out Hurricane, Blowin in the Wind or Hard Rain very loud and he ignored us all. He played NO classics... none! It was all new material none of us knew the songs, and we were shocked at how he didnt give a toss about his audience. That concert was a waste of $60....
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 20:03
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Where were the thieves in ancient times
Who trampled upon my pounds so green?
And was the holy copyright
Enough to protect my concert scenes?
 
And then technology produced in time,
A slew of digital video cams --
And on youtube now I'm replayed,
Without consent, I feel that I've been scammed!
 
Bring me accountants all counting gold,
Bring me attorneys I desire,
Bring me a suit without delay --
To burn these films in a funeral pyre!
 
I will not cease to sue in court,
Nor shall my lawyers stop their demands!
Till I have filled my bank accounts
From money won from stupid, thoughtless fans!
 
LOLLOLLOL
so you will post this on your blog I take it!
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 20:31
Ok heres some youtube clips I made with band's music. Listen to these...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So now you know 3 things...
1. That the band/artist actually exists
2. You have heard at least one song that the band has created.
3. Whether or not YOU like their particular music.
 
Now how has that hurt the band/s?
 
At least now they have the added exposure! (over 300 views in total for all the clips I loaded last month already)
 
And I didnt load them for that reason anyway. i loaded them becasue I enjoy making clips of prog bands. I love the music and this is my way of showing that. Its just a hobby. i am not into bootlegging, rarely get hold of bootlegs if ever, and I usually buy the albums of my favourite bands. case in point, I bought all ELPs except Love Beach and some live albums. I chose to do that. i dont think youtube could ever replace albums. I listened to Youtube clips of Astra's The Weirding, and went out immediately and bought it. Same for Frequency by IQ. I would not have done that if not for hearing them first on youtube. Its the greatest thing to hear an album and knowing you love it so you can then buy it with that safe knowledge. Is that fair enough? 
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Points: 13065 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 20:57
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Where were the thieves in ancient times
Who trampled upon my pounds so green?
And was the holy copyright
Enough to protect my concert scenes?
 
And then technology produced in time,
A slew of digital video cams --
And on youtube now I'm replayed,
Without consent, I feel that I've been scammed!
 
Bring me accountants all counting gold,
Bring me attorneys I desire,
Bring me a suit without delay --
To burn these films in a funeral pyre!
 
I will not cease to sue in court,
Nor shall my lawyers stop their demands!
Till I have filled my bank accounts
From money won from stupid, thoughtless fans!
 
LOLLOLLOL
so you will post this on your blog I take it!
 
Actually, I have been a proponent of having all songs available on youtube for quite some time. As you know, I use youtube clips on my blog quite often when discussing important albums or great songs, and get quite irritated when I can't locate a specific version of a song for an article. As far as I'm concerned, my blog is giving free advertising for the music I am discussing, particularly since I rarely discuss music I dislike (and I wouldn't waste time offering a youtube clip of a song I despised, in any case). I've gotten plenty of feedback from readers who love the songs and go out and purchase the artist's music.
 
It seems to me ludicrous when every Beatles, Pink Floyd, Tull, Led Zeppelin and Genesis song is available on youtube, but such artists as Bob Dylan, The Eagles and Bruce Springsteen do not have any of the studio versions of their songs available. Why? Does Sony Music feel they haven't gouged enough money out of fans? Or, like Greg Lake, do these pompous performers feel that their artistic rights have been compromised? Illegal Downloading is one thing, but checking out a band you've never heard before and finding a lost or hidden gem more often than not leads to increased record sales.
 
I don't have any statistics to go on, but I know from a personal standpoint that youtube has led me to purchase CDs (many CDs); therefore, I have to believe that a large percentage of music listeners do the same thing. You certainly can't find good music on the radio anymore (unless perhaps you subscribe to Sirius), and if you're looking for something obscure, youtube is the best place to go.
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 21:43
^^^^Clap
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 21:44
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 
Actually, I have been a proponent of having all songs available on youtube for quite some time. As you know, I use youtube clips on my blog quite often when discussing important albums or great songs, and get quite irritated when I can't locate a specific version of a song for an article. As far as I'm concerned, my blog is giving free advertising for the music I am discussing, particularly since I rarely discuss music I dislike (and I wouldn't waste time offering a youtube clip of a song I despised, in any case). I've gotten plenty of feedback from readers who love the songs and go out and purchase the artist's music.
 
It seems to me ludicrous when every Beatles, Pink Floyd, Tull, Led Zeppelin and Genesis song is available on youtube, but such artists as Bob Dylan, The Eagles and Bruce Springsteen do not have any of the studio versions of their songs available. Why? Does Sony Music feel they haven't gouged enough money out of fans? Or, like Greg Lake, do these pompous performers feel that their artistic rights have been compromised? Illegal Downloading is one thing, but checking out a band you've never heard before and finding a lost or hidden gem more often than not leads to increased record sales.
 
I don't have any statistics to go on, but I know from a personal standpoint that youtube has led me to purchase CDs (many CDs); therefore, I have to believe that a large percentage of music listeners do the same thing. You certainly can't find good music on the radio anymore (unless perhaps you subscribe to Sirius), and if you're looking for something obscure, youtube is the best place to go.
Surely it is the artist and their management's decision on how and where they should promote their material. If they don't want to use YouTube then that is their choice and their loss if people can't discover the arttists material by that route. Anyone not connected to the artist has no right or remit to arbitarily decide to publish on YouTube or a Blog a promo video or use a song as the soundtrack to an amateur slideshow (however well thought out, constructed or presented it may be).
 
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