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JS19 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
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Points: 1321
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 Posted: March 08 2011 at 16:35 |
 AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
Dream Theater are amazing - i mostly listen to the early material these days
Though I watch the DVDs quite a lot.
Chaos In Motion and SCORE are quintessential.
I am saddened by the departure of Portnoy as a lot of fans are, but it is excitng knowing they are getting a new injection of blood with a fresh drummer, that could change their sound! |
Well this is what we *were* talking about before 'someone' turned up. I think that a new drummer will not have enough creative input to really change the sound of DT, until a few albums down the line, assuming they get there. It would be nice for a change though, I'm getting a little bored of the standard DT album.
I love Score, but not chaos in motion, I find some of the performances better, and the extra tracks like Raise The Knife really make it....
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 08 2011 at 11:09 |
JS19 wrote:
Hanyou wrote:
I'm confused. The thread is called "Dream Theater." That's what my post corresponded to. Who's derailing it?
Derailment would be launching into conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassination or talking about how many Pokemon I collected in the past 24 hours.
Anyway, since pursuing this line of discussion is seen as "derailment," I won't reply to rogerthat, much as I'd like to. |
Well I think that the absolute definition of 'derailment' is to launch into a 3 post long defensive hypocritical rant ..... Eh rogerthat?  |
Yeah, absolutely right, that describes your outburst directed at my first response to Hanyou to a t.  The very definition of hypocritical is to throw subjectivity out of the window and then call somebody else a snob, beautiful!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: March 08 2011 at 11:04 |
Hanyou wrote:
I'm confused. The thread is called "Dream Theater." That's what my post corresponded to. Who's derailing it?
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The thread is about the quirkiness of DT on account of both prog and metal elements in their music. It is NOT a general DT thread. Yes, I know that's related, but since my response to you was construed by JS19 as an opportune rant at DT, I have to then call your post a derailment too.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: March 08 2011 at 03:36 |
If Dream Theater start doing stuff like on James LaBrie's album..... 
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
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Points: 14258
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Posted: March 08 2011 at 02:46 |
Dream Theater are amazing - i mostly listen to the early material these days
Though I watch the DVDs quite a lot.
Chaos In Motion and SCORE are quintessential.
I am saddened by the departure of Portnoy as a lot of fans are, but it is excitng knowing they are getting a new injection of blood with a fresh drummer, that could change their sound!
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
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Posted: March 08 2011 at 02:38 |
Hanyou wrote:
I'm confused. The thread is called "Dream Theater." That's what my post corresponded to. Who's derailing it?
Derailment would be launching into conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassination or talking about how many Pokemon I collected in the past 24 hours.
Anyway, since pursuing this line of discussion is seen as "derailment," I won't reply to rogerthat, much as I'd like to. |
Well I think that the absolute definition of 'derailment' is to launch into a 3 post long defensive hypocritical rant ..... Eh rogerthat?
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Hanyou
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2010
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 101
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 21:23 |
I'm confused. The thread is called "Dream Theater." That's what my post corresponded to. Who's derailing it?
Derailment would be launching into conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassination or talking about how many Pokemon I collected in the past 24 hours.
Anyway, since pursuing this line of discussion is seen as "derailment," I won't reply to rogerthat, much as I'd like to.
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darkshade
Collaborator
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Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
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Points: 10964
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 20:55 |
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topic derailment is derailing the original topic derailment derailing the original topic
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Sargasso
Forum Groupie
Joined: January 28 2011
Location: Auburn
Status: Offline
Points: 42
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 20:41 |
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speaking of topic derailment...
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darkshade
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Joined: November 19 2005
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 20:21 |
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ugh, this is why i go to dreamtheaterforums.org when i want to talk about DT
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 20:11 |
Hanyou wrote:
This is my first time commenting in the thread, I believe. I don't know what has been said in the past and I can't be held accountable for it, but I obviously asked a valid question if it's provoked discussion. |
I am sorry, it's not very valid to say it absolutely p*ss*s you off that the haters call DT this and that. Quite provocative, if anything. Regardless, my first response to that comment of yours was reasonable even if very divergent from your views. I am sorry, divergence on these things can't be helped, it's part and parcel of music discussions. But JS19 here used it to launch into an (in)opportune rant on DT-haters, elitists, bias and everything else under the sun. Fine, if that's the line you folks are gonna play, it's not hard for me to. We are mostly all grown ups here, so let's not any of us get the impression confrontational, defensive-aggressive posturing scares anyone here. As long as you respond reasonably to my posts while still disagreeing, I will respond likewise. Making accusations and branding people things is not going to help the discussion.
Hanyou wrote:
But thanks for accusing me of derailing the thread, even though you previously thought my point was valid enough for you to critique it. I see the Principle of Charity reins here.
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Not understanding the point of a thread and posting something else is to derail it. OK, some derails are a lot of fun, that's a different story.
Edited by rogerthat - March 07 2011 at 20:45
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 20:08 |
JS19 wrote:
I think the actual reason, that these threads go off topic is because, even though this thread was obviously a thread that discussed the direction the band would take, which would mean it was a positive thread, just for those who were interested, |
Excuse me, sire, I am quite aware what the purpose of the thread was and had posted on topic before, what's more, you had even responded on them. That is all the proof I need to give that I am quite well versed with their music and quite able to discuss constructively. Take a look at where precisely the direction of the thread took a big turn. As I said, it is not enough to discuss something related to DT for you folks, is it, you MUST somehow convert it into a rant against the haters. Fine, you want an argument, I'll give you a swell one. What,do you people get blinded to everything by rage if somebody attacks your 'beloved' band?  And by the way, LOL @ the very concept of "haters". On a forum like PA where people disagreeing and moving on is de riguer, it probably only means an inability to accommodate another perspective.
JS19 wrote:
You just had to write a post so far up your own backside that you had to winch it out didn't you. |
More defensive wailing, doesn't even merit a response.
JS19 wrote:
Of course if you had something constructive to say about the topic, this thread wouldn't go off topic. WHich is what you want isn't it? |
Please see above.
JS19 wrote:
(PS. By the way, i actually agree that quite a lot of DT material can be a little emotionally cold, but there is some genuinely emotion stuff there, and to call it soulless is just blind) |
Er, do you people not understand the difference between relative and absolute attributes? I had taken a lot of pains to explain that when people say DT is soulless, they don't mean completely, objectively soulless, they simply mean it's not soulful enough for them. That is imo a reasonable position and if you won't even concede that, fine, go ride that high horse, whatever floats your boat. Did you at all read and comprehend that post of mine where I described all this before declaring it most biast post and what not?
Edited by rogerthat - March 07 2011 at 20:26
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 20:00 |
Hanyou wrote:
Like I said, I understand that music is subjective, I just don't think the level of emotion in those songs is really that ambiguous. |
No, in that case, you DON'T understand that it is subjective because you seem to be unable to allow for a different opinion.
Hanyou wrote:
It's not hard to sound emotional. |
It's not surprising coming from such a perspective that you'd struggle so much with the notion that DT lack emotion. OK, let me put it this way, emoting is easy, emoting CONVINCINGLY is very, very tough.
| Also, what does "80's cliche epic" mean? When I think of 80's epics, I think of Iron Maiden, Metallica, or Marillion. Dream Theater definitely carries an influence from them, but it has a sound all its own. |
Only to the extent that a band like Iron Maiden didn't have much pop metal influence. Combine Maiden-Metallica riffery with that whole 80s arena rock kind of feel and you get DT. They disguise it quite well with prog rock and fusion influences, doesn't mean I won't be able to see right through it because it's an uncomfortable amalgamation.
| I wouldn't call it "cliche" at all, as "Finally Free" doesn't sound like it comes from any of those bands. |
So what if you wouldn't, I am entitled to and I have given my reasons above.
| As for Ayreon, I think they're brilliant and I love the style used on those albums. |
So there you are on consistency. I said I don't like that style and don't find it all that emotional and also that I don't discriminate against DT specifically. And yet, here you folks are trying desperately to prove that all DT-'hate' is just elitism. Seriously, get a grip.
| For the record, I love "Fallen Angel" and "Firth of Fifth." Brilliant songs. But I don't quite see what they have to do with Dream Theater or "Finally Free." |
Er, that I don't think they are even remotely on the same plane, emotionally?
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Porcupinetheater
Forum Groupie
Joined: February 26 2011
Location: by your window
Status: Offline
Points: 54
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 18:51 |
Gerinski wrote:
I love much of DT's work and Finally Free is one of them.
Not so fond of their studio albums after 6 Degrees, Octavarium the track is fine although not as good as it may look, but the rest of the album, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds are all rather weak.
However I think that the Score DVD has great stuff.
I respect them a lot though. Genesis screwed their career up far more and for longer time, and yet they get much less bashed. |
Yeah, their last three haven't been as good as most of their older stuff was, but I do think BC & SL was at least a step in the right direction. Hopefully, they can at least keep up a linear trend of improvement. Although that in and of itself is difficult for most any band, and exponential increase is far too much to ask from anyone.
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Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch it to be sure.
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Hanyou
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2010
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 101
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 18:40 |
Meh, concerning live albums, I rarely listen to them. I prefer studio albums. That said, Score was spectacular, and I'd definitely give another live album a listen if it were on that scale.
Gerinski wrote:
I love much of DT's work and Finally Free is one of them.
Not so fond of their studio albums after 6 Degrees, Octavarium the track is fine although not as good as it may look, but the rest of the album, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds are all rather weak.
However I think that the Score DVD has great stuff.
I respect them a lot though. Genesis screwed their career up far more and for longer time, and yet they get much less bashed. |
Octavarium's one of my favorite albums! The albums surrounding it, though, are pretty boring, especially Train of Thought.
I don't even think Six Degrees as a whole is a masterpiece. I love the title track, but other than that...meh. The major problem with Dream Theater is that they've gotten "heavier" and forgotten what made them great in the first place. They're also good for their softer material. Octavarium emphasized that, which I appreciate.
The sad thing is they'll never write another Images & Words. I love everything about that album.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 16:48 |
I love much of DT's work and Finally Free is one of them.
Not so fond of their studio albums after 6 Degrees, Octavarium the track is fine although not as good as it may look, but the rest of the album, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds are all rather weak.
However I think that the Score DVD has great stuff.
I respect them a lot though. Genesis screwed their career up far more and for longer time, and yet they get much less bashed.
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darkshade
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Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 15:34 |
JS19 wrote:
darkshade wrote:
anywaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy....
who else is hoping for a new live album after DT11 comes out?
I am. In my opinion, Chaos In Motion wasnt a TRUE live album, like Budokan or Score, where it was ONE concert, and released as a DVD and CD. Not to mention the quality of CiM was questionable. Plus i'd like a live version of a couple of BC&SL songs.
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I agree with you about Chaos In Motion, it was pretty bad, and LaBrie sounded absolutely knackered, almost ruined the entire thing. To be a hundred percent honest, if there was another live album, I don't think i'd buy it, I'm a bit 'lived out', and most of the time, I'd rather go listen to the studio versions, although I do have every other DT live outing.  |
to be honest, i never listen to Budokan, Score, LSFNY, etc, straight through, but each release has something worthwhile to listen to aside from the studio recordings (ex, Buokan's version of Beyond This Life and Trial of Tears , Raise the Knife from Score, as well as the entire second set of Score, ACOS from LSFNY, which i think is better than the studio EP version IMO, CiM version of Surrounded (i like it), etc....)
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 15:16 |
darkshade wrote:
anywaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy....
who else is hoping for a new live album after DT11 comes out?
I am. In my opinion, Chaos In Motion wasnt a TRUE live album, like Budokan or Score, where it was ONE concert, and released as a DVD and CD. Not to mention the quality of CiM was questionable. Plus i'd like a live version of a couple of BC&SL songs.
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I agree with you about Chaos In Motion, it was pretty bad, and LaBrie sounded absolutely knackered, almost ruined the entire thing. To be a hundred percent honest, if there was another live album, I don't think i'd buy it, I'm a bit 'lived out', and most of the time, I'd rather go listen to the studio versions, although I do have every other DT live outing.
Edited by JS19 - March 07 2011 at 15:18
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darkshade
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Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 15:05 |
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anywaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy....
who else is hoping for a new live album after DT11 comes out?
I am. In my opinion, Chaos In Motion wasnt a TRUE live album, like Budokan or Score, where it was ONE concert, and released as a DVD and CD. Not to mention the quality of CiM was questionable. Plus i'd like a live version of a couple of BC&SL songs.
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Hanyou
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2010
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 101
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 12:29 |
| Ironically, this thread was going along fine before, predictably, a Dream Theater fan just HAD to invalidate criticism made about DT and others joined in to express their condolences. Is it so hard to stay on topic instead of launching into the same old rant every time the opportunity presents itself and then complain that people bash DT all the time? |
This is my first time commenting in the thread, I believe. I don't know what has been said in the past and I can't be held accountable for it, but I obviously asked a valid question if it's provoked discussion. What's wrong with that?
Also, you're acting like I'm some mindless Dream Theater fan. I take offense to that, and it's patently untrue. Savatage, not Dream Theater is probably my favorite metal act, and I recognize some serious flaws in Dream Theater's style that have been most pronounced in Falling Into Infinity, Train of Thought, Systematic Chaos, and Black Clouds. In all honesty, I rarely listen to those albums.
I can't stand Tool's music and I find many of that band's fans annoying. I find the music utterly emotionless. But I don't go around advertising my subjective criticisms as objective fact the way many DT detractors do.
But thanks for accusing me of derailing the thread, even though you previously thought my point was valid enough for you to critique it. I see the Principle of Charity reins here.
Edited by Hanyou - March 07 2011 at 12:36
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