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harmonium.ro View Drop Down
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:28
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


Just wondering, is that something you personally believe?


What exactly? I'm not sure what are you referring to. Embarrassed


Oh, that the liberal US system may not fit perfectly in the European context, just curious if you think that.




Well, I'm no political analyst so I can't give an objective answer to that, I can only say that in my personal view hate speech in itself can breed violence, so it's better to try to control the hate speech in the first instance instead of dealing with the consequences. Reading about that case was definitely interesting and I don't hold my opinion as universal, the liberal system may fit better the US than my view. But I wouldn't blindly apply that system to European countries.
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Points: 5575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:21
This has become a giant debate about Freedom Of Speech when the original post is about the consequence of someone deliberately being publicly insensitive and aggravating. That law isn't about denying history or censoring freedom of speech it is a perfectly rational rule set in place to stop people publicly using one of the signs of ultimate hate. 
And the right to full Freedom Of Speech is very much a grey area, theres a fine line between having the freedom to express yourself and total anarchy but because Americans have it in the constitution they feel the need to get all weepy eyed about any sort of violation to the point of someone in this thread calling it a "human rights violation." And yet on national broadcast television in America it is against the law to say cuss words, the ultimate hypocrisy. 
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:18
This thread is totally not derailed.
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:12
How about opinion
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:08
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

  

In the same way, the Nazi salute is offensive to Germans, they have the right to decide if they ban it or not, and nobody has the right to criticize them, it's the voice of the majority.

Iván

Yes criticize was a wrong word, I should had said make mockery.

Iván.
            
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:06
Lol this thread is definitely not on topic.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:05
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

what is this, the new shred?


lolwut

No this has been too on topic and FAR less fun to participate in!
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:04
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

  

In the same way, the Nazi salute is offensive to Germans, they have the right to decide if they ban it or not, and nobody has the right to criticize them, it's the voice of the majority.

Iván
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:03
what is this, the new shred?
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:01
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


Just wondering, is that something you personally believe?


What exactly? I'm not sure what are you referring to. Embarrassed


Oh, that the liberal US system may not fit perfectly in the European context, just curious if you think that.


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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:00
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ivan, next time when there's a law like the Arizona law that you don't like, remember: SHUT UP. You can't criticize it.

 


Oh yeah, also that ^


One thing is to give an opinion, even disagree, but not to treat and qualify all those who have a different system almost as idiots.

The Germans are entitled to have the law they consider will protect their way of life, we may agree or not, we can criticize it, but not ridicule their position as it has been done.

Iván
            
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:57
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


Just wondering, is that something you personally believe?


What exactly? I'm not sure what are you referring to. Embarrassed
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:51
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ivan, next time when there's a law like the Arizona law that you don't like, remember: SHUT UP. You can't criticize it.

 


Oh yeah, also that ^
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:50
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Brian, this is for you: http://nationalinterest.org/article/ghosts-fascists-past-4888?page=show


Since you addressed it for me.
Well right off the bat you're getting into sticky territory with the "Is Islam compatible with Democracy and Western Culture?" question.
May say no but I think that's silly. I know first hand they can be compatible.
And the current Middle Eastern situation seems to say something as well.

I digress.

Isn't this is a bit old? I know Muslim's in Germany and France have been concerns, and increasing numbers in various countries have led to "oh no they are flooding Europe" among some.

Anywho, sorry to miss your point Embarrassed Is it that this all adds up to a credible threat of a rise in extreme right wing ideology? I do admit, the economic crisis along with xenophobia is a bit of a frightening reminder...
Like Freedom of Speech multiculturalism isn't always pretty either LOLCry
The US has been making it through, I think (and hope) Europe shall as well.



There wasn't a particular point, the article just shows that while nowhere near an abrupt end of democracy & all that in Europe, serious concerns should be treated accordingly, and that the very liberal system in the US might not fit perfectly with the European context.


Ah good! Now I feel good since that's kinda what I gathered LOL
Just wondering, is that something you personally believe?

Not to be an arrogant American, in fact the opposite! But a lot of people feel they are better than the US, why not adopt a more liberal system?  As I said, we havn't collapsed yet. I hope most "Western" nations could adopt it.

Anyway I probably have said too much already! Thanks though Alex, for the info and some perspective into a bit of European thinking. Smile
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:50
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Voting is mandatory! Hahahahahahaha LOL
So is in my country of origin. It's laughable. And then the government can stop you from going out of the country just because you didn't vote to... you know, to "legitimize" government, or, better said, to make the people believe they have power over their rulers, which they absolutely don't.

It's disgusting.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:49
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Voting is mandatory! Hahahahahahaha LOL

Yes, voting is mandatory in Perú, if not you have to may a penalty, if not, you can't sign contracts, get a passport or even have a bank account.

Quote In Peru the voter has to carry a stamped voting card for a number of months after the election as a proof of having voted. This stamp is required in order to obtain some services and goods from some public offices.

 

I disagree with this, but the law is the law

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 01 2011 at 19:15
            
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:47
Ivan, next time when there's a law like the Arizona law that you don't like, remember: SHUT UP. You can't criticize it.

If a country enacts stupid laws any sane person is free to criticize it. After all, laws are passed by congresses and presidents, by PEOPLE, and people are quite prone to make stupid things. And, after all, laws are a representation of what a few usually rich and powerful guys want for their country, not what the country itself is. Countries are just lines in a map. I can criticize a law because it's stupid based on principles, because they apply to human beings, not because they happen to be applied in an arbitrary political division of a map.
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harmonium.ro View Drop Down
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:45
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Brian, this is for you: http://nationalinterest.org/article/ghosts-fascists-past-4888?page=show


Since you addressed it for me.
Well right off the bat you're getting into sticky territory with the "Is Islam compatible with Democracy and Western Culture?" question.
May say no but I think that's silly. I know first hand they can be compatible.
And the current Middle Eastern situation seems to say something as well.

I digress.

Isn't this is a bit old? I know Muslim's in Germany and France have been concerns, and increasing numbers in various countries have led to "oh no they are flooding Europe" among some.

Anywho, sorry to miss your point Embarrassed Is it that this all adds up to a credible threat of a rise in extreme right wing ideology? I do admit, the economic crisis along with xenophobia is a bit of a frightening reminder...
Like Freedom of Speech multiculturalism isn't always pretty either LOLCry
The US has been making it through, I think (and hope) Europe shall as well.



There wasn't a particular point, the article just shows that while nowhere near an abrupt end of democracy & all that in Europe, serious concerns should be treated accordingly, and that the very liberal system in the US might not fit perfectly with the European context.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:44
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Man himself is freedom, he shows up in existence and there is no determinism, he is free to make of himself what he becomes, man is freedom, if he is not then Ivan perhaps you can tell me what he is?

Then...Must we allow 1% of the people (who take the arms) decide for 99% of us?

That's what happened with terrorism, a small group had the country at the border of a civil war, you don't know what is to leave your house in the morning, not knowing if they were going to blow your street (as it happened multiple times)..

Or are we allowed to decide what is best for us?

I believe we have the freedom to decide what is better for us.

Iván
            
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:41
Voting is mandatory! Hahahahahahaha LOL
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