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presdoug 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
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Points: 8737
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 Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:15 |
 Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Lot's of people are ignorant. We don't throw them all in jail.
You also have no idea what happened. It's a generic hand motion. It could have been interpreted to be greatly different than what it was meant to be.
Also, who's to say he wasn't doing it for satirical or educational purposes?
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Sorry, you are right, i had not even read the story from the link at the beginning of this thread. When i tried, just now, to access the article, i could not link to it, for technical reasons. Can you please tell me directly what happened in this story?
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Points: 13228
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:23 |
If the Germans wish to ban the Nazi salute and the swastika, that is their business. If, as a democacy, they wish to repeal the ban, that is their business also; however, I don't see any great movement on the part of Germans as a people to eliminate the ban. Therefore, all this indignation on this thread is much ado about nothing.
It is rather like the confederate flag in the U.S. There has been pushes for banning the flag in certain southern states which either incorporated the confederate flag into their state flag, or who flew the flag to commemorate the confederacy. Many states have bowed to pressure and removed the flags because of their direct association with slavery, an idea repugnant to many African-Americans (and rightfully so, given the Jim Crow laws enacted in several southern states that perpetuated inequality even after the Confederacy was defeated).
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Points: 32995
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:23 |
presdoug wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Lot's of people are ignorant. We don't throw them all in jail.
You also have no idea what happened. It's a generic hand motion. It could have been interpreted to be greatly different than what it was meant to be.
Also, who's to say he wasn't doing it for satirical or educational purposes?
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Sorry, you are right, i had not even read the story from the link at the beginning of this thread. When i tried, just now, to access the article, i could not link to it, for technical reasons. Can you please tell me directly what happened in this story?
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A Canadian man has been arrested after making a 'Hitler salute' outside the Reichstag, the German parliament building.
According to Der Tagesspiegel, the 30-year-old from Quebec was photographed giving the Hitlergruß in Berlin by a 29-year-old German friend.
The man was released after posting bail but had the camera's memory card confiscated by police officers, The Local reports.
Officials will now conduct an investigation into using an illegal symbolic gesture.
The Nazi salute, usually accompanied by the phrase "Heil Hitler!", has been illegal in Germany since the end of World War II, though it may still be used for art, teaching and science.
Instances where the salute is ironic and clearly critical of the Nazi regime are also exempt.
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:30 |
[QUOTE=The Dark Elf]If the Germans wish to ban the Nazi salute and the swastika, that is their business. If, as a democacy, they wish to repeal the ban, that is their business also; however, I don't see any great movement on the part of Germans as a people to eliminate the ban. Therefore, all this indignation on this thread is much ado about nothing.
It is rather like the confederate flag in the U.S. There has been pushes for banning the flag in certain southern states which either incorporated the confederate flag into their state flag, or who flew the flag to commemorate the confederacy. Many states have bowed to pressure and removed the flags because of their direct association with slavery, an idea repugnant to many African-Americans (and rightfully so, given the Jim Crow laws enacted in several southern states that perpetuated inequality even after the Confederacy was defeated). [/QUOTEThanks for telling us about"much ado about nothing" and then giving your two cent worth of "nothing"]
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:35 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
If the Germans wish to ban the Nazi salute and the swastika, that is their business. If, as a democacy, they wish to repeal the ban, that is their business also; however, I don't see any great movement on the part of Germans as a people to eliminate the ban. Therefore, all this indignation on this thread is much ado about nothing.
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You're right. They're a democracy so they can pass whatever laws they want, and I can not complain about them. I forgot.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:40 |
timothy leary wrote:
[QUOTE=The Dark Elf]If the Germans wish to ban the Nazi salute and the swastika, that is their business. If, as a democacy, they wish to repeal the ban, that is their business also; however, I don't see any great movement on the part of Germans as a people to eliminate the ban. Therefore, all this indignation on this thread is much ado about nothing.
It is rather like the confederate flag in the U.S. There has been pushes for banning the flag in certain southern states which either incorporated the confederate flag into their state flag, or who flew the flag to commemorate the confederacy. Many states have bowed to pressure and removed the flags because of their direct association with slavery, an idea repugnant to many African-Americans (and rightfully so, given the Jim Crow laws enacted in several southern states that perpetuated inequality even after the Confederacy was defeated). [/QUOTEThanks for telling us about"much ado about nothing" and then giving your two cent worth of "nothing"] |
Merely showing the concern in context with the U.S. and the right to repeal if they thought it necessary, as they obviously don't.
But really, it comes down to using common sense, doesn't it? Perhaps this Canadian didn't know that the Nazi salute was banned, but I am thinking perhaps he did and was being inciteful. If you're going to visit a country, maybe it is best to conform to their laws and not act like a twit. For instance, if I vacationed in a Middle-eastern country, I certainly wouldn't go about drawing pictures of Mohammed and publicly tacking them to walls. I do not agree with the prohibition, but I am certainly not going to insult the laws or religion of that country.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:44 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
But really, it comes down to using common sense, doesn't it? Perhaps this Canadian didn't know that the Nazi salute was banned, but I am thinking perhaps he did and was being inciteful. If you're going to visit a country, maybe it is best to conform to their laws and not act like a twit. For instance, if I vacationed in a Middle-eastern country, I certainly wouldn't go about drawing pictures of Mohammed and publicly tacking them to walls. I do not agree with the prohibition, but I am certainly not going to insult the laws or religion of that country. |
You are not alone, but it always upsets me when PA members are ok with authoritarian restrictions on speech because of "offense". I believe I have a fundamental human right to offend people because "offensive" is a subjective, not objective, metric. The synagogue has every right to kick me off their property if I have a swastika on my shirt, but the government has no right to tell me that I can't wear it. A lot of Europe (+ Australia) have speech/libel laws that I find alarmingly fascist, and I can't understand why so many people are ok with them. Also, changing a state flag is far different from banning the display of the Confederate flag.
Atavachron wrote:
Well it's illegal there, besides you can have both freedom of expression and strict laws |
In the long term, I disagree.
Edited by Henry Plainview - March 01 2011 at 11:46
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:45 |
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As far as I know laws and common sense are not synonyms
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zoom_zoom
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 01 2011
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Points: 3
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:50 |
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giving the nazi salute, even as a joke, is in poor taste.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
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Points: 16715
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:51 |
timothy leary wrote:
As far as I know laws and common sense are not synonyms
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"Common sense" is a meaningless term, and I have started to get very upset when politicians use it. Besides that it's a dodge from saying what your position is and an implicit attack on your opponents', a lot of reality is counter-intuitive. Unfortunately, it's not going away any time soon, at least in US politics, because populism lolololol. Also, I should note that I am ok with Germany banning the Nazi party after WWII because that was an extreme situation. But there is not a serious danger of the Nazi party seizing control today.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:59 |
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Do they ban the toothbrush moustache?
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:04 |
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I'm not sure Ben. I guess it's certainly not advised. How often do you see someone named Adolph nowadays? Never. Not surprising, really.
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Points: 13228
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:12 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
As far as I know laws and common sense are not synonyms |
"Common sense" is a meaningless term, and I have started to get very upset when politicians use it. Besides that it's a dodge from saying what your position is and an implicit attack on your opponents', a lot of reality is counter-intuitive. Unfortunately, it's not going away any time soon, at least in US politics, because populism lolololol.
Also, I should note that I am ok with Germany banning the Nazi party after WWII because that was an extreme situation. But there is not a serious danger of the Nazi party seizing control today. |
Perhaps "common sense" is a meaningless term, particularly since it is so uncommon. But I would then suggest that a Canadian guest in a foreign country, Germany, being photographed making a strictly banned gesture in front of such a politically and historically important building as the Reichstag is the height of stupidity and crassness. What will he do for an encore, visit Japan and stand on the steps of the Imperial Palace in Tokyo, showing clips of the atom bomb detonating in Hiroshima?
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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The T
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:13 |
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Damn job. I missed a great discussion.
f**k those laws. Regulating people's thoughts is the first step towards totalitarianism. Funny how to avoid another totalitarian regime some laws are created that would only exist in one of those.
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Padraic
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:16 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Perhaps "common sense" is a meaningless term, particularly since it is so uncommon. But I would then suggest that a Canadian guest in a foreign country, Germany, being photographed making a strictly banned gesture in front of such a politically and historically important building as the Reichstag is the height of stupidity and crassness.
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And I don't think you'll find a single person to disagree with you. Where some of us have a problem though is when you throw the stupid, crass person in jail for it.
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:16 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
If the Germans wish to ban the Nazi salute and the swastika, that is their business. If, as a democacy, they wish to repeal the ban, that is their business also; however, I don't see any great movement on the part of Germans as a people to eliminate the ban. Therefore, all this indignation on this thread is much ado about nothing.
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You're right. They're a democracy so they can pass whatever laws they want, and I can not complain about them. I forgot. |
People should remember that it was a democratic procedure that put the Nazis in power in the first place. A populace that starts accepting all forms of regulation of people's actions and that is desperate will eventually elect a totalitarist...
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:24 |
Padraic wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Perhaps "common sense" is a meaningless term, particularly since it is so uncommon. But I would then suggest that a Canadian guest in a foreign country, Germany, being photographed making a strictly banned gesture in front of such a politically and historically important building as the Reichstag is the height of stupidity and crassness.
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And I don't think you'll find a single person to disagree with you. Where some of us have a problem though is when you throw the stupid, crass person in jail for it. |
And you are right, of course. Stupidity and crassnes is not illegal, otherwise just think how many hip-hop artists would be serving jail time. I suppose it comes down to whether the Canadian gentleman was aware of the law, which the article did not make clear. If he was indeed aware of the law (and standing before the Reichstag making a Nazi salute seems to be a politically motivated action), then he deserves jail time. If he was merely being stupid, then the Germans overreacted. I need more information on the arrest and the subsequent investigation before commenting further, but I will say that I was aware of the German law, and I have never been to Germany,
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Epignosis
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:27 |
Exactly T. It wasn't just a group of extremists who rose to power "somehow" and preached hate. The evil mentality that served as the impetus for what happened in the mid 1900s came from the masses, not just the government.
A lot of people don't realize that those sentiments existed in the US before, during, and after all this- even some of our Presidents propagated it.
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:34 |
The T wrote:
People should remember that it was a democratic procedure that put the Nazis in power in the first place. A populace that starts accepting all forms of regulation of people's actions and that is desperate will eventually elect a totalitarist... |
Hmmm....perhaps my German history is rusty, but as I recall, Hitler subverted the electoral process. Hitler came in 2nd place to Hindenburg in the 1932 election, but under Hindenburg's presidency Hitler became Chancellor. When Hindenburg died before his term was over, Hitler forcefully grabbed the reigns of power and abolished the presidency altogether. Hitler was never "elected" to lead Germany.
As far as the German law banning swastikas, I do not see any great stab at totalitarianism on the part of Germany (or West Germany, for most of the period) since it was enacted 65 years ago.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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The T
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:43 |
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Yes your history is rusty. Is rusty because it doesn't take into account that the big opposing party to Hitler's first ascension were the socialists, another state-above-individual movement that got ahold of the Prussian mentality. The nazis came in second but they were already such a power that Hindenburg asked Hitler to be his chancellor. Then only after Hindenburg died did he eliminate the Presidency and declare himself Fuhrer and Reichkanzler. He had eliminated oppositio first, and his first rivals to be put away were the communists, you know, those with quite a similar view but with a differen t color. Yes, the conditions in Germany were ripe for totalitarianism to take hold. Yes your history is rusty, or better yet, simplistic.
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Nazi Salute.
