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The T 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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 Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:39 |
 boo boo wrote:
The T wrote:
^That's all I've been trying to say and all Overmatik has trying to deny, yet you jumped ready to fight because Alice Cooper and LAdy Gaga were compared...   |
I jumped ready to fight because of the completely ignorant way you've written off a 40 year music career (one that's more diverse than people think) based on a few hit singles.
Just to defend Lady goddamn Gaga. |
No, you jumped because you like Alice Cooper. Would you have jumped so quickly if someone would've written off another 40 year music career like, say, Elton John's (I'm not sure you dislike his music anyway... pick any 40-year career musician you don't like and see).
And yes, I'm not the biggest Alice Cooper expert ever. And yes, what I heard from his music is quite irrelevant to me.
And yes, I would defend even Justin f**king Bieber if the arguments were so poor as those used to talk about Gaga, West, or mainstream music in general.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:40 |
If a little bulbous bald man can translate his superb drumming talent into a fortune singing "It's no fun being an illegal alien," surely there must be a correlation between what we call "art rock" and "pop."
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
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Points: 22989
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:42 |
The T wrote:
boo boo wrote:
The T wrote:
^That's all I've been trying to say and all Overmatik has trying to deny, yet you jumped ready to fight because Alice Cooper and LAdy Gaga were compared... |
I jumped ready to fight because of the completely ignorant way you've written off a 40 year music career (one that's more diverse than people think) based on a few hit singles.
Just to defend Lady goddamn Gaga. |
No, you jumped because you like Alice Cooper. Would you have jumped so quickly if someone would've written off another 40 year music career like, say, Elton John's (I'm not sure you dislike his music anyway... pick any 40-year career musician you don't like and see).
And yes, I'm not the biggest Alice Cooper expert ever. And yes, what I heard from his music is quite irrelevant to me.
And yes, I would defend even Justin f**king Bieber if the arguments were so poor as those used to talk about Gaga, West, or mainstream music in general. |
Except for Dowsing Anemone 
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:43 |
There's a much greater relation than some people here are afraid to accept.
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:43 |
I don't even hate Lady Gaga, I even have some respect for her to an extent, just no interest in her music whatsoever and it's very hard for me to understand the appeal of it, not that I'm gonna flip out because people do like it.
I might have to listen to a fair share of Gaga in the future, especially if it's vital in getting me laid. And that is WAY more important than the pride I have in my musical taste.
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:43 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
The T wrote:
boo boo wrote:
The T wrote:
^That's all I've been trying to say and all Overmatik has trying to deny, yet you jumped ready to fight because Alice Cooper and LAdy Gaga were compared... |
I jumped ready to fight because of the completely ignorant way you've written off a 40 year music career (one that's more diverse than people think) based on a few hit singles.
Just to defend Lady goddamn Gaga. |
No, you jumped because you like Alice Cooper. Would you have jumped so quickly if someone would've written off another 40 year music career like, say, Elton John's (I'm not sure you dislike his music anyway... pick any 40-year career musician you don't like and see).
And yes, I'm not the biggest Alice Cooper expert ever. And yes, what I heard from his music is quite irrelevant to me.
And yes, I would defend even Justin f**king Bieber if the arguments were so poor as those used to talk about Gaga, West, or mainstream music in general. |
Except for Dowsing Anemone
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Now you're pushing it too far ...
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overmatik
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 15 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 96
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:46 |
The T wrote:
Tu claramente dijiste que, por ejemplo, Kanye no es musica. Ok, no puedes comprobarlo objetivamente. Lady Gaga fue otro ejemplo, y esta claro que su exito no solo se lo debe a sus rarezas sino a su decente pop. No se trata aqui de decir que Lady Gaga es la ultima maravilla del mundo sino que es musica y no es basura. Y si lo es, hay gente a quien no le gusta oir que lo que oyen es basura.
Sí, soy bien receptivo. Encuentro cualidades en Gaga y West. David Bowie puede que tenga algunos mayores atributos pero sinceramente prefiero oir a cualquiera de los dos anteriores. Yo no dejo que mi ego me diga que debo oir, sino mi deseo en ese momento.
Ok, no problem. We can cut this language debate. If it was not pejorative, I take no offense and intend none either. And I'm not trying to force you to appreciate Gaga or West. Just saying that is music and for some is great music and none really knows... One can get passionate, I understand. If someone were to compare David Bowie with JS Bach I would probably react in shock, but in the end, there are perspectives and perspectives.... |
So in the end is just as I said before. I am not trying to preach anything, and is up to anyone to listen to what one enjoys. But that doesn't change things in the long run. And is not like I'm the only person in the world who says you can't compare even 80s pop like Depeche Mode and Tears for Fears to Lady Gaga and Kanye West. Thank god.
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"Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity. Calculate what we will or will not tolerate. Desperate to control all and everything. Unable to forgive your scarlet letterman."
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:48 |
The T wrote:
boo boo wrote:
The T wrote:
^That's all I've been trying to say and all Overmatik has trying to deny, yet you jumped ready to fight because Alice Cooper and LAdy Gaga were compared... |
I jumped ready to fight because of the completely ignorant way you've written off a 40 year music career (one that's more diverse than people think) based on a few hit singles.
Just to defend Lady goddamn Gaga. |
No, you jumped because you like Alice Cooper. Would you have jumped so quickly if someone would've written off another 40 year music career like, say, Elton John's (I'm not sure you dislike his music anyway... pick any 40-year career musician you don't like and see).
And yes, I'm not the biggest Alice Cooper expert ever. And yes, what I heard from his music is quite irrelevant to me.
And yes, I would defend even Justin f**king Bieber if the arguments were so poor as those used to talk about Gaga, West, or mainstream music in general. |
Even of the 40 year career musicians I don't like, I generally have respect for any musician who manages to stick around that long and has had a lasting influence on music I do like.
For one, I'm not crazy about Bob Dylan. But I would still take offense to people writing off his career in a very ignorant or obnoxious way.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:55 |
boo boo wrote:
The T wrote:
boo boo wrote:
The T wrote:
^That's all I've been trying to say and all Overmatik has trying to deny, yet you jumped ready to fight because Alice Cooper and LAdy Gaga were compared... |
I jumped ready to fight because of the completely ignorant way you've written off a 40 year music career (one that's more diverse than people think) based on a few hit singles.
Just to defend Lady goddamn Gaga. |
No, you jumped because you like Alice Cooper. Would you have jumped so quickly if someone would've written off another 40 year music career like, say, Elton John's (I'm not sure you dislike his music anyway... pick any 40-year career musician you don't like and see).
And yes, I'm not the biggest Alice Cooper expert ever. And yes, what I heard from his music is quite irrelevant to me.
And yes, I would defend even Justin f**king Bieber if the arguments were so poor as those used to talk about Gaga, West, or mainstream music in general. |
Even of the 40 year career musicians I don't like, I generally have respect for any musician who manages to stick around that long and has had a lasting influence on music I do like.
For one, I'm not crazy about Bob Dylan. But I would still take offense to people writing off his career in a very ignorant or obnoxious way. |
Actually I never even wrote off the guy. I just said "simple rock songs", which in no way is saying "his whole career is crap". I just happen to think that even that long song Aginor posted is a rock song, a relatively simple one at that, though longer and slightly more complex than your average pop or rock track.
By the way, I consider, so you understand me, "Pull Me Under" by Dream Theater another "simple rock song", or, ok, "simple metal song".
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 13:02 |
| And by the way since when did ALICE COOPER become the standard-bearer for quality music? Last time I heard his songs are rather simple rock songs, no more complex in harmony or structure than Lady Gaga's song, but with much, much poorer melody.
You know how many atrocious performers have tried to gain the spotlight with their strange antics? Many. How many succeed? Only a few. Usually, their music, simple and pop as it might be, catches the ear of quite a lot of people. |
I interpreted that as being a pretty blatant stab.
Even if it wasnt and you just phrased it in a way that confused me, I still say he has more than a few songs that are rather intricate and unusually structured. Not on par with the complexity of neo classical music or anything, but definitely more complex than just your 3 chord garage rock.
And saying Gaga is a better melodist, seriously how can you NOT expect to push someones berzerk button with statements like that? 
Edited by boo boo - February 04 2011 at 13:05
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The T
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 13:08 |
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Oh it's quite obvious. Melody is the main factor of pop music, much more so than harmony. Rhythm and melody are the two factors that attract people the most. Harmony is much more difficult to grasp and easier to understand for learned people. Lady Gaga's music attracts because is tuneful. Not precisely long, complex, Brucknerian melodies, but short pretty melodies anyway. At least in what I've heard from Master Fournier, I never heard melodies as a strong point. But, again, I'm not Cooper expert.
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 13:49 |
Just cuz her music attracts more people doesnt mean it IS better, of course it's subjective and if you think Gaga is better that's fine, it's your right just as much as it's my right to think you are totally insane for having such an opinion. 
I also think you're oversimplifying exactly why Gaga is so popular. It's not like she's the most popular pop artist right now because she's simply the best pop melodist. As there are some genuinely excellent pop artists out there who are not as popular. There are many reasons for this, one is that image is important. Sure it was very important for Alice Cooper too, though compared to many other shock rock artists with similar theatrics he actually had the music to back it up (IMO) and many people agree to that which is why he's held in much higher regard than say.... Slipknot.
Are there people who like Gaga just for her music? Oh I'm sure of it, but that is not why she's become such a media darling, her music is hardly distinguishable from all the other pop divas out there, sex appeal is just part of it as she's not the most attractive of the lot, what DOES distinguish her are her weird antics. I think that's a big part of her appeal.
In that sense I do understand where this Alice Cooper comparison came from. They are both artists who are very fond of provoking people. I find it weird that Cooper is the one to get brought up though, as I find that people more often compare Gaga to David Bowie and Bjork, but again she's only comparable in terms of her image.
Cooper, Bowie and Bjork all had eccentric music to back up their eccentric appearance. Gaga doesn't.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 20:57 |
boo boo wrote:
Cooper, Bowie and Bjork all had eccentric music to back up their eccentric appearance. Gaga doesn't. |
And so what if she doesn't, provided it works as good pop music? I am not familiar with LG, mind, and what I heard I put away as pretty much regular pop and nothing worth looking at more closely but so what if her music isn't eccentric? By no means is it easy to write a simple but appealing pop song and, of all people, some prog musicians who tried and burnt their fingers in the 80s should know.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 04 2011 at 21:22 |
Here's a related question. When's the last time an instrumental became a pop hit? Because believe it or not it used to happen before prog. The Beach Boys using a Theremin comes to mind as innovative. (If you don't know what song, don't make me have to smack you upside the head. ) Today there's that annoying vocal altering thingamobob that everyone seems to be using. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 04 2011 at 21:27
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:14 |
^ wasn't that a Tannerin, not a Theremin 
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:20 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Here's a related question. When's the last time an instrumental became a pop hit? Because believe it or not it used to happen before prog.
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Off the top of my head - William Orbit - Barber's Adagio For Strings, though I'm sure one of those tv themes for the Olympics or The World Cup (rugby, football or cricket) has charted in the recent past.
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What?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:25 |
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Didn't Yanni chart with Live At Acropolis?
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:54 |
rogerthat wrote:
boo boo wrote:
Cooper, Bowie and Bjork all had eccentric music to back up their eccentric appearance. Gaga doesn't. |
And so what if she doesn't, provided it works as good pop music? I am not familiar with LG, mind, and what I heard I put away as pretty much regular pop and nothing worth looking at more closely but so what if her music isn't eccentric? By no means is it easy to write a simple but appealing pop song and, of all people, some prog musicians who tried and burnt their fingers in the 80s should know.
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I'm not writing off her music because it isn't eccentric. Hell I'm not even writing off her music (even though I don't care for it at all). I'm just stating what I believe to be a fact, as in the reason people call her original and weird because of how she markets herself, and that if she didn't have that unusual image she'd probably be thought of in a different light (even if she still sold a lot of records).
I''m not saying if you're gonna dress weird you have to make weird music. KISS dressed really weird, even though their music was as straightfoward rock n roll as you can get.
I'm just saying she doesn't deserve the kind of comparisons she gets, people can think she makes better music than David Bowie and Bjork if they want to, but they definitely can't claim that her music is even close to being as original, if they want to be taken seriously.
Regardless of what you think of Bowie, Cooper, Bjork, when you hear their songs even those you haven't heard before, you immediately know who it is, even when many artists have tried to imitate them.
Gaga's voice is a bit different I suppose, but still I can barely distinguish her music from everything else and it isn't that people are imitating her so much as that's what pop music already sounded like before she arrived.
I'm not by any means biased against pop, I tend to be one of the few here that defends pop music on a regular basis. I actually like quite a decent share of synthpop. My issue with Gaga is that there were already people before her doing what she does and they did it better. Goldfrapp and Daft Punk IMO were making very good synthy pop music that wasn't too different from what Gaga is doing right now, only it was way better.
I've definitely heard worse than Gaga, her music seems so standard to me that it's hardly worth having a strong opinion about.
Edited by boo boo - February 05 2011 at 07:59
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Location: .
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 09:49 |
boo boo wrote:
I'm just saying she doesn't deserve the kind of comparisons she gets, people can think she makes better music than David Bowie and Bjork if they want to, but they definitely can't claim that her music is even close to being as original, if they want to be taken seriously.
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I don't think The T was trying to say that, his point had more to do with quality and also complexity. He is right that straight up rock is not any more complex than pop. Now, if you want to read into that things that have not been said, then very well.
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Equality 7-2521
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 10:37 |
Dean wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Here's a related question. When's the last time an instrumental became a pop hit? Because believe it or not it used to happen before prog.
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Off the top of my head - William Orbit - Barber's Adagio For Strings, though I'm sure one of those tv themes for the Olympics or The World Cup (rugby, football or cricket) has charted in the recent past. |
Fatboy Slim - Weapon of Choice
That was a huge song and only like 10 years ago.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Is Pop Music Innovative Or Good Anymore?
