Forum Home Forum Home > Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements > Help us improve the site
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Must Read for PA'rs
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedMust Read for PA'rs
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 10:19
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Diversity and socialized (Wink) access to public opinion is what makes PA great, if I want a professional critic's stance on a piece of music I know where to find it. 

Even a professional critic gives us his or her opinion.


I know, and I'm not implying otherwise.

Well I just don't understand Moshkito's point at all. Who can seperate ones personal view of something and what they feel about something when writing about it. What would pure "facts" tell us?

I suppose a review could be stripped down to bare facts up to a degree, but I don't know how useful would that be. I don't think that could even be called a review. One can describe the elements of the music, but to say if those elements work together as a piece of music means judgment (ergo, opinion).

I suspect that Moshkito made this thread due to me. From a comment I made elswhere. Glad I'm not going mad.
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7969 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 10:13
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Of course we should be respectful towards the artists, reviews should never degenerate into personal insults. Constructive critisism is perfectly valid though.

I think it's the key point.

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Well a good writer is also an artist, why don't they deserve the same sensitivity?

We are more delicate with our "writers" than with artists. 

For example, I don't like some reviewers' styles, but If I'll risk to critisize them I already know the answers: "It's their right to express themselves in a way they like",  "Many site visitors like their reviews", "Come and write better reviews" etc.
There is a community, we have virtual (or real) friends and even a constructive critisism can look as a personal attack.

From the other hand, everybody (well, some of us) thinks that he has the right to teach artists: Keith Emerson should not do this, Phil Collins should not do that and so on. 


Edited by NotAProghead - February 05 2011 at 10:15
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 08:40
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

"Subjective opinions" is like saying "two twins" or "the male penis."
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
Back to Top
irrelevant View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 07 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 13382 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:36
A review made up of pure facts is useless. 
New album!
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385
Back to Top
harmonium.ro View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:33
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Diversity and socialized (Wink) access to public opinion is what makes PA great, if I want a professional critic's stance on a piece of music I know where to find it. 

Even a professional critic gives us his or her opinion.


I know, and I'm not implying otherwise.

Well I just don't understand Moshkito's point at all. Who can seperate ones personal view of something and what they feel about something when writing about it. What would pure "facts" tell us?

I suppose a review could be stripped down to bare facts up to a degree, but I don't know how useful would that be. I don't think that could even be called a review. One can describe the elements of the music, but to say if those elements work together as a piece of music means judgment (ergo, opinion).
Back to Top
LinusW View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 27 2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 10665 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:28
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


What would pure "facts" tell us?


Very little.
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:26
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Diversity and socialized (Wink) access to public opinion is what makes PA great, if I want a professional critic's stance on a piece of music I know where to find it. 

Even a professional critic gives us his or her opinion.


I know, and I'm not implying otherwise.

Well I just don't understand Moshkito's point at all. Who can seperate ones personal view of something and what they feel about something when writing about it. What would pure "facts" tell us?
Back to Top
Rivertree View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Band Submissions

Joined: March 22 2006
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 17651 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:25
how can someone write insightful without having an unformatted opinon?


Back to Top
harmonium.ro View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:23
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Diversity and socialized (Wink) access to public opinion is what makes PA great, if I want a professional critic's stance on a piece of music I know where to find it. 

Even a professional critic gives us his or her opinion.


I know, and I'm not implying otherwise.
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:18
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Diversity and socialized (Wink) access to public opinion is what makes PA great, if I want a professional critic's stance on a piece of music I know where to find it. 

Even a professional critic gives us his or her opinion.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 06:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Thanks, good article. Though I don't think it will change the situation.
 
Not sure that "change" is what is needed.
 
I just think that the leadership requesting a bit more from its "reviewers" is not too much to ask ... except maybe one person or two ... but then, that would be par for the course.
 
Again, and I posted this elsewhere, reviews should have a standard ... period ... and they should be checked or approved. In my book, opinions are not enough, and should not be the main thrust of a review.
I've tried to explain this before - there is no leadership here. The site owner, the admins, the collaborators are only enablers - we provide and maintain the tools that allow people to review, but we do not dictate, demand or control what they review or how they do it. We have a few loosely enforced guidelines that's all. Those members with Prog Reviewer status attained that status because they have written an number of reviews that achieved some arbitrary level of quality in writing, but not some prescribed standard of content. PA reviews are self-publication in micorcosm - you are your own proof-reader and editor - the reviewer has complete control of what they do.
 
~+~+~+~+
 
This is the old Objective/Subjective debate again - music is not a statement of factual information even though it is composed of factual elements, such as notes, melodies and rhythms ordered by instrumentation and orchestration; it is designed to be subjective, to create and stir emotions, to effect more than just objective assessment of those factual components and there it is valid to have an opinion of that subjectiveness. If that were not the case then all music would be equal and reviews unnecessary, just as a review of a telephone directory is unnecessary even if it does contain all the same words as War And Peace but in a different order. If the music does not stir you to be subjective then it is as meaningful as a Sanskrit telephone directory to an Inuit and the objective assessment of that music becomes pointless.
What?
Back to Top
harmonium.ro View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 06:33
Diversity and socialized (Wink) access to public opinion is what makes PA great, if I want a professional critic's stance on a piece of music I know where to find it. 
Back to Top
Sean Trane View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20436 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 04:54
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I think this article was posted here last fall when it was published--  certainly fair for a musician to turn the criticism back on the journalist.  On the other hand, Wilson seems to be whining a bit here;  He wants people to hear his music and  read his articles and be on his side all at once.  Sorry Steve, it don't work that way.  If we have to put up with a lot of mediocre music, you have to put up with mediocre reviews.  Deal with it.


Indeed, Wilson has been pumping essentially the same music ever since Stupid Dreams (whether solo, blackfield or PT and hundreds of other collabs). He's got an instantly recognizable sonic paw, but he's been selling essentialkly the same thing over the years....
 
So when one is publishing an oeuvre and sells it rather expensively (no more than the usual industry prizes, though) , he must accept criticism that comes with it... I do understand that critics are a bit harder to take when somebody didn't pay for it and still criticizes, though... but it doesn't mean the points made are less valid...  
 
yes everyone's got opinions (even Wilson), like they've got an a****le... and sometimes diarrhea strikes and sh*t comes out, usually smelling foul ... but you reap what you sow.... and as an artist, you should know that better than most humans...
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
Back to Top
Easy Livin View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 03:40
Indeed. Opinions are the essence of our reviews. Why else would we add a star rating to summarise the review?
 
If reviews were simply based on facts, not only would they be boring, but they could be very misleading. For example, a track me include the most technically excellent guitar solo in the world, but when I listen to it, it sounds dreadful to me. Surely the proposal is not that the review simply reflects the technical perfection?
 
Of course we should be respectful towards the artists, reviews should never degenerate into personal insults. Constructive critisism is perfectly valid though.
Back to Top
Chris S View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 03:40
Thumbs UpOpinions in reviews......why an earth not? I think sites like RYM and even Amazon show more lattitude with less anal parameters. As David says most people have to put up with poor music and musicians should have to put up with poor reviews. Wilson's views seem quite rightwing like bordering on censorship, a bit like hiding in one's shell....
<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 03:32
My opinion has not changed one iota. Opinions in reviews are entirely valid. Not sure I ever read a review that wasn't an opinion.
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 03:07
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
On the other topic, the discussion came up that one's opinion of an album is important on a "review" of th ealbum.
 
I stated that opinions belong in the forums, not in a review.
 
A review should be a discussion of the ideas and what you see, and explained why you say what you say ... in other words I have asked that "reviewers" in this board raise their standards into a form of literary criticism ... that helps make the music better and more important.
 
Leave the opinions at home and write something insightful.
 
I came from a literary family and a very large group of literary studies, and critics. None of them gave an opinion without explaining what they saw and how. And this I am asking you folks to do as well.
 
As it turns out, I am not the only one that sees this ... and now comes the time to ask ... do you want your reviews to just be another drunk bar room talk about the music you love?
 
 
Enjoy it ... but some of you won't read it because it is a bit long ... ohhh damn ... someone has something to say!LOL


I'm struggling to understand what you really mean here Mosh. I think you want the standard of reviews to be better but that's a bit of a no-brainer really. I admit that this track sucks or this is boring are hardly helpful in describing the music, but no matter how objective the reviewer attempts to be, we always learn more about the listener than what is being listened to regardless of how much justification is provided for opinions. What you appear to be asking for are academic analysis of composition and social critiques of context. I mean come on! this is an amateur fan site and one of it's great strengths is the sort of healthy irreverence that you want to dispense with entirely?
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 00:39
Great. Now reviews are not supposed to have opinion. What should they have then? A literary description? A description in purely musical terms? "In this song X goes into E flat but after a rather quick modulation ends in G minor". Wow. Not even reviews of classical music albums in Gramophone are like that.

And who is supposed to check the "standard" for reviews?

The one factor that has made PA what it is, you want to eliminate: the ability for any Joe tp review any album of any geek with a guitar and an ego... Sorry. Don't support one damn bit.
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65682 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 00:38
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

^ Want it or not, but artists are sensitive people. 
It would not be too bad for reviewers, from 15 y.o fans to most prolific ones, to remember this. 


So we should all 'be more careful' ?  More sensitive to a successful band reaping the rewards of fans' love of music and hard-earned money?  Well a good writer is also an artist, why don't they deserve the same sensitivity?

The answer is they don't; It's nonsense, and confuses the issue.  You create, you publish, you get the bad with the good.  That's it.  That's all there is. 
Back to Top
< id="dropDownTopicSearch" ="quick_topic_search.asp?TID=75673" ="dropDownTopicSearch" rel="nofollow" border="0" scrolling="no">
 Post Reply Post Reply

Back to Top
Henry Plainview View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2011 at 00:24
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I think this article was posted here last fall when it was published--  certainly fair for a musician to turn the criticism back on the journalist.  On the other hand, Wilson seems to be whining a bit here;  He wants people to hear his music and  read his articles and be on his side all at once.  Sorry Steve, it don't work that way.  If we have to put up with a lot of mediocre music, you have to put up with mediocre reviews.  Deal with it.

Yes, I made a thread, (actually, with our wonderful post-upgrade ability to search message bodies you can see that it's been discussed a moderate amount). I basically agree with David here, but here is what I wrote then again if you missed it the first time. 
Quote I admit I rarely use the PA reviews, although that's in a large part because my current musical interests lie outside this website. I also still haven't gotten around to writing one myself, but I am stunned by the continued absurdity of Steve Wilson. He writes an annoying song called Four Chords That Made A Million to complain about the music industry (while writing a bunch of songs that sound like Pink Floyd). Then, just in case you didn't get it the first time, he writes another song about how much the music industry sucks and lacks originally on In Abstentia. Yet that very song is a direct homage to Have A Cigar, which is from one of the most successful albums by one of the most successful bands of all time, and In Abstentia marked a major mainstream turn in his sound. Then he complains about modern music again on FOABP, while continuing to sound even more like alt-rock and the best place to do this is PT's new home, Roadrunner Records, the home of Nickelback, Slipknot, Alter Bridge, Stone Sour, Korn, Dragonforce, CKY, and Rob Zombie. There's probably more complaining on Deadwing and The Incident but I don't know or care about them.

Then, he decides that Lester Bangs is what the world needs right now to get people thinking about music? The music press has always been an extension of and an enabler of the corporate music scene that keeps him up at night, seething with rage (despite that every band he loves from the '70s was part of it). If we can't think and learn for ourselves, who is it that should appoint the journalists to think for us and force us into limited ranges of opinions? It's just....Steve Wilson obviously cares a lot about prog, even if he doesn't want PT to be thought of as prog, but I, and I think almost every other prog fan around, would put anybody who has ever written for Rolling Stone very far down the list of "People whose musical opinions I could care about". Is he just being contrarian now? I'm sorry you are 42, Steve, and you wish you had been born 30 years earlier, but I cannot fathom somebody thinking that the music press was one of the good things from the '70s! Pitchfork can w**k out a pretentiously unreadable review just as well as Lester or any other critic could, I don't see the big deal about print journalism. And the 15 year old Metallica fans really have nothing to do with it.

Also, you shouldn't feel compelled to oppose him simply because you're on a website he's describing, perhaps even one he's thinking of, since we've had entertaining run ins with him before. I think he would recognize the prog reviewers as being an informed opinion, although they don't have the blessing of somebody working for dead media, so maybe not.




Edited by Henry Plainview - February 05 2011 at 00:34
if you own a sodastream i hate you
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.406 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.