Why isn't prog popular?

Henry Plainview wrote: Bonnek wrote:  I try to look for music that wants to be more then just entertainment. What is music that is more than just entertainment? And please don't say art.

Sorry, I thought that one was rather straightforward.
Entertainment is everything that is meant to please a pre-defined audience.
If I start a band tomorrow that clones Dream Theater then I'm an entertainer, catering for a specific target group.
Obviously most pop serves that purpose too.

I like some pop but what I get the most satisfaction from is artists who do their own thing, express what they want to in the way they want to.
As an ideal you could say they would even do that without an audience in mind.
That is of course a rare extreme case that maybe only apply to guys like Zappa and Beefheart. But also Yes, Floyd, Genesis, ELP,... lived by that ideal in their beginnings.

So yes, I will call some music on PA art, by lack of a better word.


Edited by Bonnek - January 24 2011 at 18:25

coming in a noob and otherwise recent outsider to the genre, some of my thoughts and stereotypes about prog have been:

age 15, looking at two h.s. friends who like rush - 'wow these guys are loud and scream the word 'rush' a lot
age 19-discovering myself musically - "i'm too cool to like rush"
age 21, dating a prog freak - "i hate marillion and dreamtheater and that is all he plays!" and is this the only type of person who's into this stuff? nerdy old guys?
age 24 - "i still must be the music snob queen, know everything that comes out before anyone and be on top of it all, all genres! (evil laugh) ...but still no prog, that's for people nerdier than i am"

age 30 (married with two jedi) - "i'm too old to play the music game anymore, i jsut want to listen to the type of music i enjoy, i want to discover lots of things, any genre is fine i am open  to anything..even prog

age 31 - (listening to prog seriously for the first time) "THIS is what prog is???  but, but, this is the music that my soul makes! it's like debussy and tchaikovsky and and it's sounds like the labyrinth soundtrack1!!



it took me 15 years for my prog heart of ice to melt (i blame my kids for making me too tired to be cool anymore)  and it's because i thought i was too cool for school. i have a ton of music, def more than most i think and prog and a small few others are the only ones that really make me 'go to that place'
to be fair though, eveyr prog person i've met until i came into the scene have been arrogant music snobs, one person liked nothing but prog and classical because 'it's complex'. i asked him if he thought it was also beautiful too and he just laughed at me, i told him i'd have to take it away from him.
a lot of times, it's the fans that make a scene, rather play a huge part in it, maybe somewhere along the way prog fans wanted to make their music inaccessible to the mainstream? think about how much you dislike creepy emo kids or cheesy goths so wont give that music a try? i don't know it's just a theory

prog is also very personal, you are in our own world when you listen to it, it's total 'gaze into my soul' music..my past life in the land of dragons and faeries, music. maybe our self esteems don't want to get teased for liking it as well. or maybe people as a whole are not open to a lot of different things in which i see a lot of you take that stance, it's easy to say of someone if they dont like what you like that they 'just don't know' and be arrogant bout it. everyone does that :)

rogerthat wrote: PlumAplomb wrote: a lot of times, it's the fans that make a scene, rather play a huge part in it, maybe somewhere along the way prog fans wanted to make their music inaccessible to the mainstream? think about how much you dislike creepy emo kids or cheesy goths so wont give that music a try? i don't know it's just a theory Very true, I think Exitthelemming made an observation on similar lines. The cult of obscurity is a powerful one in music. Prog is not the only genre where this tendency is seen, obscurity is much valued and flaunted in metal too. Again, full on metal at the 'extreme' end of its aggression is not quite mainstream-friendly stuff.  People, lamentably if I may say so, derive pleasure in enjoying that which others 'cannot'. PlumAplomb wrote: prog is also very personal, you are in our own world when you listen to it, it's total 'gaze into my soul' music..my past life in the land of dragons and faeries, music. maybe our self esteems don't want to get teased for liking it as well. or maybe people as a whole are not open to a lot of different things in which i see a lot of you take that stance, it's easy to say of someone if they dont like what you like that they 'just don't know' and be arrogant bout it. everyone does that :) I think to an extent people really don't know. Not to say they don't know much about music, in fact they may even be very knowledgable about music. But prog's tendency to reject formats and cliches and basically re-engineer the music (as opposed to inventing) can put off a lot of people, they would prefer not to have to bother finding out where exactly the song starts and what's supposed to be its point.  It is after all one perspective of looking at music, why not simply enjoy the experience, why the left brained chore of sorting it out and making sense of it (just playing devil's advocate ). And the knee jerk reaction of most people on being made to listen to prog is that it's some senseless, hippy-trippy stuff and the prog listener is just trying to be cool and a snob by listening to it.  So I'd suggest that non-prog's audience's unwillingness to even acknowledge the possibility that we progheads may be deriving pleasure from the experience of prog and that it is capable of being emotional and beautiful just like any other kind of music fuels the "they don't know" elitism.  This may sound like juvenile tit-for-tat retaliation, but why would a proghead want to respect the other person's view when prog is constantly persecuted, berated and ignored? "They" make no attempt to understand "our" world so the feeling is perhaps mutual to a greater extent than people would care to admit.    Of course, "we" are outnumbered by far, so the best way out of it is to embrace the music "they" listen to (which is supposed to be so easy for the open minded proghead?)  and get to know of their perspective to.

oh i agree with you Rog completely, i have some post on here describing how long it actually took me to seriously get into prog. it's not a juvenile response at all i understand exactly what you mean.
your response reminds me of something my dad once said (beware religious metaphor hope nobody is offended) he's jewish, my mom is catholic. he once said that christians are like used car salesmen where anyone can join 'come, we have cookies!' whilst jews play hard to get and that if you really want to be jewish and are serious about it, you have to prove it. 
maybe it's like that with our  music :) it's so personal and heartfelt to us. i personally want to explore all differnt kinds of things musical et al. maybe that's why i'm a polytheistic pagan:)
personally it bugs me when i ask someone what their favorite music is and they can't answer because they don't know their music identity. that may be an elitist statement htough:)

moshkito wrote: PlumAplomb wrote:   ... prog is also very personal, you are in our own world when you listen to it, it's total 'gaze into my soul' music..my past life in the land of dragons and faeries, music. maybe our self esteems don't want to get teased for liking it as well. or maybe people as a whole are not open to a lot of different things in which i see a lot of you take that stance, it's easy to say of someone if they dont like what you like that they 'just don't know' and be arrogant bout it. everyone does that :)   All "serious music" is personal to a great extent. And the so called "serious music" and "classical music" try to separate themselves from that experience, at least within a rock/jazz concert atmosphere, because we get excited and all that ... and in classical music you don't do that until the break or change of acts or movements!   I am of the opinion, that sometimes we are not as well versed in the arts, and the art of individuality, and most schooling is about placing you into the same group as everyone, so all the kids liking something, and you not, means you are not cool ... it's very childish and something that is not discussed, and sometimes we do that here (including me!) even without meaning to do so.   You have to have a sense of "personality" and "person" and "yourself" in order to like something that others don't. And you have to walk away from those socialist-types (don't you love it -- in a democracy they do that to you! ... yeah!), because they are only trying to feel superior because they are "in" ... and this was one of the biggest fights I had in California when I got there in 1971 ... with people thinking you were not cool because you did not exactly think that Joni Mitchell or Jackson Brown were that great ... which I always said ... so what? And once asked ... is that your excuse to get stoned? ... you ___________ moron, and walked out of his party ... and I found out later that the party ended 15 minutes later and that others did not like that person either!   It's a tough area all around ... but I sincerely question the desire and ability to be something, when we're doing the opposite ... and that is something that I am not sure that everyone has the "perspective" in order to be able to see it, which always makes the person that sees it sound wrong. Maybe stuffy a bit, but not necessarily wrong ... and I always said ... you have a choice ... how do you want the truth to get to you? ... sometimes it comes with a slap, sometimes a Mack truck, sometimes a good night of sex, sometimes with a finger, sometimes with a rat, sometimes with ... and many times we will accept one way, and ignore the others ... and the reality is ... it comes in all forms!   As Reagan said one time ... let them get stoned ... I'll win all the elections! ... and I quit on the spot! That was enough!

yeah i've not ever cared what anyone thinks about me, i kind of have elementary and high school to thank for that,  i was mercissly teased for being a freak, i had no idea that's what i was lol, i was just being me :) and i'll like what i like thanks

on that note if you don't like or have never seen star wars, then you jsut don't deserve to exist.


Edited by PlumAplomb - January 25 2011 at 16:54

i can see malcolm doing that, funny. i don't know how correct i am but when i think 'amazing prog' i think england, i also think that a prog band in england is like a crappy garage band in the states, every boy has had one. but i am a huge anglophile

That's interesting, I come from near Canterbury which had its own scene and that was though to be very english. A lot of the musicians were from the local grammar school.

But you know I think there might have been US influences all along in many different ways er.. the blues revival and the psychedelic scene out od the Philmore etc all paved the way did't they? Also ike the way US fans must have supported some of our favourite bands, not sure, would the uk be big enough to allow all those bands to thrive?

The funny thing is I agree with you about the love of england, I think we share that accross the atlantic in a way cos the world has changed so much and the Prog bands seem to be more important in a way as championing a sense of the wonder of nature and stretching the imagination beyond the mundane. I love to read up on our history, like the romano british people and go and see barrows etc, that is your history too yes?

PlumAplomb wrote: moshkito wrote: PlumAplomb wrote:   ... prog is also very personal, you are in our own world when you listen to it, it's total 'gaze into my soul' music..my past life in the land of dragons and faeries, music. maybe our self esteems don't want to get teased for liking it as well. or maybe people as a whole are not open to a lot of different things in which i see a lot of you take that stance, it's easy to say of someone if they dont like what you like that they 'just don't know' and be arrogant bout it. everyone does that :)   All "serious music" is personal to a great extent. And the so called "serious music" and "classical music" try to separate themselves from that experience, at least within a rock/jazz concert atmosphere, because we get excited and all that ... and in classical music you don't do that until the break or change of acts or movements!   I am of the opinion, that sometimes we are not as well versed in the arts, and the art of individuality, and most schooling is about placing you into the same group as everyone, so all the kids liking something, and you not, means you are not cool ... it's very childish and something that is not discussed, and sometimes we do that here (including me!) even without meaning to do so.   You have to have a sense of "personality" and "person" and "yourself" in order to like something that others don't. And you have to walk away from those socialist-types (don't you love it -- in a democracy they do that to you! ... yeah!), because they are only trying to feel superior because they are "in" ... and this was one of the biggest fights I had in California when I got there in 1971 ... with people thinking you were not cool because you did not exactly think that Joni Mitchell or Jackson Brown were that great ... which I always said ... so what? And once asked ... is that your excuse to get stoned? ... you ___________ moron, and walked out of his party ... and I found out later that the party ended 15 minutes later and that others did not like that person either!   It's a tough area all around ... but I sincerely question the desire and ability to be something, when we're doing the opposite ... and that is something that I am not sure that everyone has the "perspective" in order to be able to see it, which always makes the person that sees it sound wrong. Maybe stuffy a bit, but not necessarily wrong ... and I always said ... you have a choice ... how do you want the truth to get to you? ... sometimes it comes with a slap, sometimes a Mack truck, sometimes a good night of sex, sometimes with a finger, sometimes with a rat, sometimes with ... and many times we will accept one way, and ignore the others ... and the reality is ... it comes in all forms!   As Reagan said one time ... let them get stoned ... I'll win all the elections! ... and I quit on the spot! That was enough! yeah i've not ever cared what anyone thinks about me, i kind of have elementary and high school to thank for that,  i was mercissly teased for being a freak, i had no idea that's what i was lol, i was just being me :) and i'll like what i like thanks on that note if you don't like or have never seen star wars, then you jsut don't deserve to exist.

Very interesting, for as long as I can remember, I have chosen with my own mind when it comes to arts and sometimes it is what "everyone" chooses but very often not.  It is not as if I resent the very idea of doing what everybody else does but I also don't feel obligated to follow the crowd if I find what I think is a better way for me. I didn't know about anything called prog when I was called in school but somehow I have come to become a proghead .  A far fetched idea but is there some psychological link between a non confrontational dissident (as opposed to a rebel, a la rock which pushes in the direction of rebels getting together and starting a revolution)  and prog?  Obviously, this presupposes that such a person should be interested in music and rock in particular but if...? I notice that people disagree with each other on this forum but it's normal service here, nothing unusual, but a consensus would be very important in other forums.  Again, this is quite far fetched and pretty much waiting to be called out by the "don't generalize" crowd, but it is a possibility because I know it to a certainty that I prefer composers who express their own individual vision in music rather than those who are content to work well established formats and cliches.  That is not the sole preserve of prog but it probably produces more individualistic composers than other rock/pop genres being that its very nature demands individualism.


Edited by rogerthat - January 25 2011 at 20:21

JS19 wrote: ... Also, the legions of stupid, stuck-up rock critics, who think their word is God, slamming it into the ground because 'It's not the same as everything else' don't help boost the popularity.... ...

Edited by moshkito - January 27 2011 at 17:57

Its too complex and intellectual for a casual crowd its really not a casual music its a music that requires a lot  of a person to sit down and really listen to a 6+ min. song.

0anaxim wrote: ... I heard a revealing interview with the late Malcolm McLaren where he as much as admitted that Punk was a ploy to create new markets and so they produced some publicity/propaganda about the music that dominated at that time. This was designed to push a space into the market. ...