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Do the Beatles get too much credit.. |
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himtroy 
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Joined: January 20 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1601 |
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 Posted: September 10 2010 at 13:53 |
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13th Floor elevators heavily predate the Beatles, AND their music is more psychedelic. Even some mid sixties jazz was more psychedelic than The Beatles, who aren't even very psychedelic.
Regardless, I'm going to keep this going to close in on my 1000 posts.
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Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell?
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Logan
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Posted: September 10 2010 at 14:03 |
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Just cause we're talking psyche, Fifty Foot Hose's Cauldron is a favourite of mine (from 1967).
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JLocke
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Posted: September 10 2010 at 16:33 |
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Brian Wilson only aspired to make Pet Sounds after listening to Rubber Soul. Sorry, Beatles still win.  |
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Floydman
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Posted: September 11 2010 at 07:11 |
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Does it really matter who did what first or who was more psychedelic? Some of the more psychedelic Beatles songs were psychedelic or trippy without the use of any guitars like "Blue Jay Way" or "Only a Northern Song" or constructed with loops "Tomorrow Never Knows" as a musical backdrop if you want to talk about innovation or creating psychedelic music. I know their were other great bands but listen to the freaky to the fade out/silence/then fades back in with reversed freaky electronic effects and jam on "Strawberry Fields Forever". No one on the rock side were doing things like this to be honest.
I think when you are as popular and influential as the Beatles some people need to something to bring them down. As it is the Beatles you hear some psychedelic influences on Rubber Soul.
The 13th Floor Elevators covered the Beatles "The Word" which I think they viewed the song with some psychedelic influences. So again 13th Floor elevators don't even predate the Beatles. If anything they influenced 13th Floor elevators first.
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Pelata
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Posted: September 29 2010 at 15:23 |
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It is impossible to give The Beatles too much credit...
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CloseToTheMoon
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Posted: September 29 2010 at 15:34 |
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To this day, I don't think they get enough credit. In fact, I meet more kids that hate them. They don't understand the context of the music industry in which they emerged. They didn't show off their musicality, but if you ever tried to learn a Beatles song on guitar, you probably got a whole new respect for them. Is there a chord they never used?
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CloseToTheMoon
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Posted: September 29 2010 at 15:35 |
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To this day, I don't think they get enough credit. In fact, I meet more kids that hate them. They don't understand the context of the music industry in which they emerged. They didn't show off their musicality, but if you ever tried to learn a Beatles song on guitar, you probably got a whole new respect for them. Is there a chord they never used?
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ShipOfFools
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Posted: October 07 2010 at 05:31 |
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In my opinion, they were the very first 'rock band.' They defined it all; the popularity, the fan craziness, the experimentation, the intelligent interviews they gave, the movies they made. There were a few other bands around that time, that sort of faded out...like Herman's Hermits. The Beatles, on the other hand, continued on...and their legacy lives on, 50 years later. I defy you to name a person under the age of 12 who has never heard of The Beatles. |
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"Better than a thousand hollow words is one word that brings peace" - Buddha |
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Paravion
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Posted: January 22 2011 at 06:50 |
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I agree
Who did something first matters in terms of innovation and origination - which was what OP asked us to consider. Besides, you can't draw generalizations based on details and random state of affairs and present it is a fact - so I can't be pursuaded by reasoning of the sort "the 13th floor elevators covered a particular beatles track -> they were - as a fact and generally - inspired by the beatles." It's reasonable to say that the elevators with their debut "The Psychedelic Sounds of The 13th Floor Elevators (1966)" pre-dates the beatles in producing an actual full-blown psychedelic album - both in terms of sound and 'ideology'. I don't consider the album particularly beatlesque - and in terms of 'psychedelity', they make the beatles sound like children's music. They were (of course) inspired by many things (drugs, music, litterature, psychology, philosophy, society etc. etc.), and the beatles probably fit in there somewhere - but I find it very likely that it wasn't the beatles who introduced 13th floor elevators to psychedelic music and ideology.
Evidence of a band using the particular recording technique beatles did to produce something that sounds like a particular beatles track? Good luck! You must have had too many of these:  "The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted" (Bill Bruford). It doesn't become a fact because Bruford says what he says.
Edited by Paravion - January 22 2011 at 07:29 |
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Floydman
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Posted: January 22 2011 at 08:59 |
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First are you telling me the 13th Floor Elevators were not influenced by the Beatles? Are you dismissing the fact they covered “The Word”? If you are you're sipping your own cool aid because basically every Psyh/prog/folk rock band were somewhat influenced by the Beatles. The 13th Floor Elevators Influence by The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Buddy Holly, the Kinks, The Yardbirds, Bo Diddley are some of the people who they cite as an influence. The Psychedelic Sounds of the 13th Floor Elevators recorded October 10, 1966 at Sumet Sound Studios, Dallas The Beatles "Tomorrow Never Knows", ‘Rain” and a few others recorded in April of 1966. The Beatles didn't limit themselves to one one style of music so keep that in mind but on Revolver there are at least 4 psych songs. Yet Revolver predates The Psychedelic Sounds of the 13th Floor Elevators recorded as being at least one of the first psych albums so why are even debating this I don't know. Must be a anti-Beatles thing with some people. Read the book "Every Sound There Is; The Beatles Revolver and the Transformation of Rock and Roll" By Russell Reising there is a whole chapter on the Beatles influence on Pink Floyd. Pink Floyd didn’t invent psych-rock either but they created a new sound. When Robert Buford said the Beatles were using 7/4 time signature in rock he was stating by using odd times the Beatles influenced him especially how they skipped beats using that time signature. Not really common stuff in rock more common in the jazz music he liked. . Yet whether the Beatles invented psychedelic rock or not they were extremely innovative in how they were intentionally using these techniques in creating what they thought tripping was. It’s basically psychedelic use of the studio as an instrument in which many ways helped influenced other forms of music like progressive rock, for example. The Beatles by using these techniques created a whole new sound way ambient sounds from loops, ambient seascape sound collages, backward guitars and vocals, Automatic Double Tracking, vocals from Leslie speakers, cosmic sounding rhythmic loops fading in and out, using eastern Indian drones, disorienting fade outs, using delay and changing time, mellotrons, phasing, loud up front drum & bass sounds yeah like you find many of these techniques in some form of the other in most psych/prog/electronic songs that came after words that you find on Revolver/Rain. If you want to find a song that is exactly like say "Tomorrow Never Knows" you won't exactly find one well there is King Crimson "Tomorrow Never Knew Thela" or showing how ahead of it's time the Chemical Brothers "Setting Sun". Here's some release dates on charted hits I think qualify as Psychedelic (or at least hit some trippy psychedelic overtones) for 1965 and 1966:
6/5/1965 | The Chiffons - "Nobody Knows What's Going On (in My Mind But Me)" [Laurie 3301] Edited by Floydman - January 22 2011 at 09:12 |
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irrelevant
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Posted: January 22 2011 at 09:16 |
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Cell phone companies must like The Beatles very much.
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Paravion
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Posted: January 23 2011 at 09:15 |
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No.
I backgrounded that piece of information because I don't judge it particularly important. It's self-evident that the beatles were immensely influential and widely covered, but I think it's safe to say that they didn't teach the elevators how to play psychedelic music. Secondly, you use extremely suggestive and defensive rhetorics, where you present an abundance of facts and use them as 'hostages' to jump directly to generalizations that suggest you are indisputably right and that I must be some sort of beatles hater - that's ridiculous. Psychedelic music wasn't created in some particular recording studio at some particular time by some particular group of individuals. It was a movement in many disguises using a great diversity of artistic expressions - more or less interrelated. You can argue that revolver and perhaps rubber soul has psychedelic traits and thus the beatles pre-dates the elevators in making psychedelic music. But this mechanic approach only reveals a rather insignificant detail and leaves many aspects unconsidered. If you consider the the nature of revolver vs. the psychedelic sounds of.. there is clear difference in terms of how psychedelic the albums are. The psychedelic sounds of is a full-blow psychedelic album both in terms of sounds and 'ideology' - the notes on the back-cover explicitly describes their psychedelic approach to music and life in general. So, in terms of 'psychedelity', revolver doesn't stand a chance against the psychedelic sounds of.. - regardless of the fact that it was recorded some six months earlier. Edited by Paravion - January 23 2011 at 09:34 |
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chopper
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Posted: January 23 2011 at 09:43 |
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True, but he is not the only respected musician to have said something similar, by a long way. Fripp is another. |
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Paravion
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Posted: January 23 2011 at 10:16 |
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^I know. Bruford probably didn't utter the words in a context where he was determined to show that the beatles are the center of the pop-rock universe and the creators of everything. The words also seem intentionally exaggerated (it's a little much to state that all these things were in fact impossible before the beatles) The beatles deserve a lot of recognition for their influence - but don't overdo it.
Bruford's words are used out of context in this thread - and any conclusions you may jump to based on the quote are inevitably very uncertain.
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manofmystery
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Posted: January 23 2011 at 11:38 |
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Yes, they went from being a pure boy band to being a second tier psych band. They were influencial, because they were already everywhere (anyone, anywhere could hear their music), but never anything special themselves.
Edited by manofmystery - January 23 2011 at 11:40 |
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The_Jester
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Posted: January 23 2011 at 12:02 |
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Are you saying that they are not the musical giants they are. That they were only a little part of the musical revolution. To the first state I say, no. To the second one, I say yes. They were following the mouvement that they partly created along with the Beach Boys, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, etc.
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La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle!
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manofmystery
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Posted: January 23 2011 at 12:25 |
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I am saying they were rock giants because they had been pop giants with an established fanbase. A lot of lesser known bands made much better music but didn't have the notoriety that comes with stringing together a bunch of friendly little pop songs. In other words: they weren't the first band to make psychedelic or borderline-prog music, they just happened to be the most well known. Their influence was on the market, more than anything. I'm glad they helped open the door for psych/music, better than theirs, to become more widely listened to but I really don't think it wouldn't have happened without them.
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Time always wins. |
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: January 23 2011 at 12:32 |
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King Crimson Debut - 1969
Pink Floyd Debut - 1967 Beatles Revolver - 1966 Beach Boys Pet Sounds - 1966 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Anthony H.
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Posted: January 23 2011 at 13:09 |
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This. |
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overmatik
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Posted: January 31 2011 at 16:30 |
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You know what pisses me off, these people saying the Beatles are untouchables, and you can`t even lift a finger to say anything about them, this is lame. They were amazing, but they are not the greatest band ever. As for the kids that can`t appreciate the Beatles, poor kids. But hey, they have so many great things going on right? Edited by overmatik - January 31 2011 at 16:32 |
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"Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity. Calculate what we will or will not tolerate. Desperate to control all and everything. Unable to forgive your scarlet letterman."
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aginor wrote: