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Equality 7-2521 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
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Points: 15784
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 Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:46 |
 Negoba wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
We as a society should probably condemn all of these things. That does not mean we should use force to prevent them from occurring anywhere within our borders. Forget arguments about freedom, prohibitions don't work. They don't effectively remove goods from a marketplace. Especially as a bankrupt country, we can not afford to pour billions of dollars into a drug war which does nothing besides breed corruption of officials, disrespect for the law, create and fund violent gangs, encourage the production of more potent narcotics, and divert police resources away from true crimes which real, physical victims rather than abstract, nonsensical victims such as society and morality.
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I actually am quite conflicted on this one. Your arguments about central top-down control in this case have a lot of legitimacy in my mind.
However, the victims aren't abstract. At least around here (East Saint Louis area) we have some horrific case of some guy on meth killing a toddler, usually the child of whoever he's shacking up with for the moment, multiple times every year. Some drugs do predictably increase aggression and violence. In addition, there is an enormous amount of free care that is given out to overdoses and other complications of drug abuse.
I'm pretty certain that if you completely deregulate drugs, the experience is that there is an uptick in use but that it finds a new equilibrium point that is higher (but not nearly so high as many would have you believe). The predicted decrease in policing costs does occur, but there is increased medical costs. (And some less easy to quantify social costs in addition.)
I should try to find some hard data, but I recall reading this several times.
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There are laws against murder. Maybe more specifically, there are laws against using meth. Clearly the law against using meth didn't offer any deterrence. He can be persecuted due to murder. People commit murder for a variety of reasons. Just making them illegal fails to solve or even address the problem. The uptick will occur in usage. I don't believe it will in new users. The increased equilibrium will occur due to price more than anything else.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:48 |
Epignosis wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Cars can be useful. They have a benefit / risk ration.
What is the benefit / risk ratio of PCP? |
People like it. I don't have the moral superiority to prohibit someone other than my children from using PCP. That's essentially my basis for voting yes in this poll.
Just because something is probably a stupid idea doesn't mean it should be illegal.
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Yeah I don't understand why saying that people enjoy drugs is not valid. If entertainment comes from a painting, it's okay to mention that. It's okay to spend a hundred dollars on a fine bottle of wine. But it's not valid to say that someone enjoys PCP. Well people do. End of story.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:52 |
I've never seen someone require 5 guys to hold him down to stop him from bloodying everyone in sight after seeing a painting, or enjoying fine wine. I've seen it multiple times after PCP.
Just throwing out the other side of the argument. Not sure where I stand on this one, really.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:01 |
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I haven't seen the consequences of hard drug use Jay, I've FELT and CAUSED them. Long ago in my country I had an addiction issue, about 9 years ago. And from personal experience I can tell you that the drugs being legal would have helped things a lot, and not in the easy "oh now I can buy more" way. Many of the crimes associated with drug use occur because is illegal.
On the Fentanyl or so drug, if the drug is legal and not a taboo, more advertising and edication can be devoted to explain that it's pretty much "use and die" sh*t. Now if someone still goes and tries it, it's their damn fault. Period.
Edited by The T - January 21 2011 at 11:02
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:03 |
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Anyway, if drugs cease to be so controlled and illegal, don't people think the market (oh The Shield) will come up with ways to help/treat serious addicts? Or to produce less ultra-dangerous drugs?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:08 |
Negoba wrote:
I've never seen someone require 5 guys to hold him down to stop him from bloodying everyone in sight after seeing a painting, or enjoying fine wine. I've seen it multiple times after PCP.
Just throwing out the other side of the argument. Not sure where I stand on this one, really. |
I've seen this too. I've been on the receiving end. I've seen it from other behavior like a guy's girlfriend cheating on him. I understand it has adverse effects. Clearly prohibition does not stop these from manifesting, but look at the cost of prohibition. For the record though I'll bet PCP feels a hell of a lot better then staring at a painting.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:11 |
I've seen people needed to be hold down by 5 guys just because someone took their parking spot... 
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
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Points: 32524
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:15 |
The T wrote:
I've seen people needed to be hold down by 5 guys just because someone took their parking spot... |
That does it! Parking spots must be illegal!
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:25 |
The T wrote:
Anyway, if drugs cease to be so controlled and illegal, don't people think the market (oh The Shield) will come up with ways to help/treat serious addicts? Or to produce less ultra-dangerous drugs? |
I've tried to bring up the largely ignored issue of the increase in potency of drugs caused by prohibition.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:37 |
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Some of us (I won't mention anyone in particular) just choose to take 12 of the low-potency delivery methods of our drug of choice. Why waste all that water?
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:40 |
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I doubt many of us drink with the primary intention of becoming inebriated. I stopped that when I turned 19.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:44 |
Negoba wrote:
Some of us (I won't mention anyone in particular) just choose to take 12 of the low-potency delivery methods of our drug of choice. Why waste all that water? |
It's called kidney stone prevention. 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:44 |
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Personally the carbs in beer worries me much more than the alcohol.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:45 |
No, not the primary intention. But that is often one of the benefits.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
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Points: 22989
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:47 |
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Wouldn't the problem with hard narcotics (addiction, side effects, ruining lifes, etc.) be solved by legalizing the softer drugs? I mean, would one still need them if the softer option would be legally and comfortably available?
Edited by harmonium.ro - January 21 2011 at 11:48
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
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Points: 4338
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:56 |
Just a question for clarity. When you say legal do you mean completely legal with no restrictions whatsoever? Do you mean light regulations like cigarettes and alcohol but still sold in the common market? Heavily regulated that you would need permits and doctors administration? or legalized for medical purpose only? I mean there are many degrees of legalization.
I probably would support it this way for Marijuana the second step I mentioned. For harder narcotics if you are already addicted then the third solution and only legal for the medical purpose only. For sure though the unregulated manufacture and distribution of these drugs should always be illegal. Way to much potential for death other than the API main effects or side effects on people.
Edited by Garion81 - January 21 2011 at 11:59
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:01 |
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For example with coke leaf products: I'm pretty sure legalization would reduce the cost of powder cocaine, thus effectively eliminating the need for most production of crack, thus eliminating its most dangerous alternative. But with coke being illegal, the price is so high that low-income people had to be offered the much more addictive crack.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:02 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Wouldn't the problem with hard narcotics (addiction, side effects, ruining lifes, etc.) be solved by legalizing the softer drugs? I mean, would one still need them if the softer option would be legally and comfortably available?
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It would just reduce the size of the drug market. People will still desire the hard stuff.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:03 |
Garion81 wrote:
Just a question for clarity. When you say legal do you mean completely legal with no restrictions whatsoever? Do you mean light regulations like cigarettes and alcohol but still sold in the common market? Heavily regulated that you would need permits and doctors administration? or legalized for medical purpose only? I mean there are many degrees of legalization.
I probably would support it this way for Marijuana the second step I mentioned. For harder narcotics if you are already addicted then the third solution and only legal for the medical purpose only. For sure though the unregulated manufacture and distribution of these drugs should always be illegal. Way to much potential for death other than the API main effects or side effects on people.
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I'm in the minority, probably a minority of one, but I think it should be sold by anyone, anywhere, to anyone, anywhere, subject to no restriction, tax, etc.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:11 |
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Just curious Pat, do you think non-psychoactive medication should be unrestricted. Such as cardiac medicine that is great for ailing hearts with correct monitoring but can kill if incorrectly used? Guys like me would just give suggestions for use rather than prescriptions?
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Should hard narcotics be legalized?
