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Topic ClosedYes vs Protest the Hero
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Poll Question: Which is better stuff?
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9 [12.50%]
63 [87.50%]
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:53
No?

In either case you're assuming that non-symphonic fans and non-metal fans are the same which is clearly a terrible assumption. How many symphonic fans here absolutely refuse to give prog-metal or any modern prog a fair shot?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 16122 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:55
Ivan, I was referring to the very narrow technical death metal subgenre, which you mentioned with some artists there.  That subgenre in particular sounds very samey across the board, even for me.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:58
Every metal band in Necron's top artists sound absolutely nothing alike. Can we stop this insanity?
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:08
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

No?

In either case you're assuming that non-symphonic fans and non-metal fans are the same which is clearly a terrible assumption. How many symphonic fans here absolutely refuse to give prog-metal or any modern prog a fair shot?

Nope, some Symphonic fans like Metal, I believe most not, but there are non metal fans whop don't like Symphonic abut if you check the pols, Prog Metal doesn't seem to be popular among non Metal fans, as a fact 8in most polls comes way back..

BTW: Modern Prog?

I love modern Prog I added more modern bands to many genres than many people here who claim to love modern Prog, so don't mix Prog Metal with modern Prog, both are not equivalent.

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:11
Notice the word 'or' which clearly implies that the two are not equivalent. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:12
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Every metal band in Necron's top artists sound absolutely nothing alike. Can we stop this insanity?

Most sound exactly the same to me (except bands like DT, PoS or Symphony X), that's my opinion and I'm not insane.

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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:16
I love symphonic and can name a dozen bands that sound the same.

I love metal and can name a dozen metal bands that sound the same.

Conclusion: Every genre has bands that sound alike.  Those who don't listen to those genres much will not appreciate the subtitles or differences among them.

Edited by Epignosis - January 02 2011 at 21:17
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:17
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Notice the word 'or' which clearly implies that the two are not equivalent. 

But if you talk about some Symphonic fans who give Metal and Modern Prog a Chance, you're implying that those who don't like Prog Metal, don't like Modern Prog.

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:21
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Notice the word 'or' which clearly implies that the two are not equivalent. 

But if you talk about some Symphonic fans who give Metal and Modern Prog a Chance, you're implying that those who don't like Prog Metal, don't like Modern Prog.

Iván

No I'm not. I'm saying there's Symphonic fans who don't give modern prog a chance and symphonic fans who don't give prog metal a chance, and I believe there's probably a higher proportion of symphonic fans who disregard the aforementioned groups than there are prog metal fans that disregard symphonic.

Although I would be willing to admit the two groups are exactly even also. 

See Rob's post for the end to the argument. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:24
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Iván, these bands are as similar sounding metal bands as Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull and King Crimson are similar sounding rock bands.

I insist, nobody with normal audition can mistake 

  1. Yes with Pink Floyd
  2. Genesis with Jethro Tull or 
  3. King Crimson with ELP
All the vocalists are different, all the music is different, their influences are different, and even their sub-genres are different.

While even a Metal expert admits that some Tech Extreme bands require of a very trained ear to distinguish one from the other,

Ask non metal Prog fans, and ,most of them will tell you that they can't find differences between extreme bands, ask any Prog Metal fan, and he/she will distinguish Yes from Genesis, King Crimson or Jethro Tull in a couple of seconds.

Iván


That is simply not true Iván, that is simply twisting the reality. Besides, almost anyone who listens to progressive metal also listens to progressive rock, so you are percieving two different things with two different perspectives.


Edited by CCVP - January 02 2011 at 21:33
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:25
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I love symphonic and can name a dozen bands that sound the same.

I love metal and can name a dozen metal bands that sound the same.

Conclusion: Every genre has bands that sound alike.  Those who don't listen to those genres much will not appreciate the subtitles or differences among them.


Also, this. Seriously, there is no better way to put the point across than you just did Rob.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:33
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

 

That is simply not true Iván, that is simply twisting the reality. Besides, almost anyone who listens to progressive metal also listens to progressive rock, so not only you fail to aknolege the reality, but you are also percieving two different things with two different perspectives.

Please, ask people, make polls if you want, you will find lots of people who don't find the difference between most Prog Metal bands, even a huge numbers (it has been done before) who believe Prog Metal is not Prog (I'm not in this group).

I been here a lot of years before you, and I seen every poll on the subject, so I believe I know more or less the taste tendencies in Prog Archives.

Iván




Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 02 2011 at 21:56
            
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Anthony H. View Drop Down
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Points: 6088 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:54
This is a stupid argument.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 21:56
Then give one better
            
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Anthony H. View Drop Down
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Points: 6088 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 22:09
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Then give one better


No, I meant that this whole conversation is stupid.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2011 at 22:22
Ah OK

You're entitled to your opinion

Iván



Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 02 2011 at 22:22
            
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2011 at 07:53
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

 

That is simply not true Iván, that is simply twisting the reality. Besides, almost anyone who listens to progressive metal also listens to progressive rock, so not only you fail to aknolege the reality, but you are also percieving two different things with two different perspectives.

Please, ask people, make polls if you want, you will find lots of people who don't find the difference between most Prog Metal bands, even a huge numbers (it has been done before) who believe Prog Metal is not Prog (I'm not in this group).

I been here a lot of years before you, and I seen every poll on the subject, so I believe I know more or less the taste tendencies in Prog Archives.

Iván




I took a music class in college where I was the only person out of a class of 25 that could tell the beginning of Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun apart from The Rite of Spring on a test.

I could find 100 people in about 3 seconds who can't tell the difference between Ella Fitzgerald and Billie Holiday. Who cares?

Unless you actually listen to the music you can't pick up on the differences often. As much as you want to think Symphonic prog is unique, it isn't. Nor is any of subgenre on this site. You just happen to like one more. To each his own opinion. Don't try to bring some objective measure of value in here to make the music you prefer seem more worthy.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2011 at 09:02
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:



I took a music class in college where I was the only person out of a class of 25 that could tell the beginning of Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun apart from The Rite of Spring on a test.

I could find 100 people in about 3 seconds who can't tell the difference between Ella Fitzgerald and Billie Holiday. Who cares?

Unless you actually listen to the music you can't pick up on the differences often. As much as you want to think Symphonic prog is unique, it isn't. Nor is any of subgenre on this site. You just happen to like one more. To each his own opinion. Don't try to bring some objective measure of value in here to make the music you prefer seem more worthy.

I believe you are getting me wrong, I don't say Symphonic is a special case or unique, I'm saying Extreme Tech Metal is a special case.

You take almost any two Symphonic, Eclectic, Crossover, Prog Folk or almost whatever genre tracks from two different bands and ANYBODY is able to notice immediately that both are two different bands with a different sound, even if they never heard the two bands before.

On the other hand, you take many Tech Extreme Prog Metal bands, and play almost any songs of this bands, and almost nobody will notice the difference, because it's mainly groiwling and fast guitars, you need to be an expetrt to even notice the difference among many of this bands even if you heard them before.

In my case, you play me a song by:

  1. Atheist  http://www.progarchives.com/mp3.asp?id=4628
  2. Death: http://www.progarchives.com/mp3.asp?id=3252
And aside the introduction, hardly anybody not expert in them can tell if it's the same band or not, boith growl, extremely loud and full of shredding.

Can you tell me I'm wrong if even a member who listens them in regular bases admits that only a trained ear can differentiate between bands like this?

I dare people who are  not Metal listeners to listen this tracks after the intro and tell me if they find a difference or at least tell me without doubt if the would notice both are different bands?

Iván





Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 03 2011 at 09:03
            
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2011 at 09:25
Again, what would non-metal listeners have to do with this. I can provide plenty of examples of popular opinion thinking two songs sound exactly the same when they're incredibly different. That doesn't prove anything.

For the record I can't tell the difference between most prog-folk and most non-mainstream symphonic bands.

EDIT: May as well throw in progressive electronic too.

EDIT: And post-rock.

EDIT: I could keep going.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 03 2011 at 09:27
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2011 at 10:02
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Again, what would non-metal listeners have to do with this. I can provide plenty of examples of popular opinion thinking two songs sound exactly the same when they're incredibly different. That doesn't prove anything.

For the record I can't tell the difference between most prog-folk and most non-mainstream symphonic bands.

EDIT: May as well throw in progressive electronic too.

EDIT: And post-rock.

EDIT: I could keep going.

But in this case both are incredibly similar to the point of being almost exact, a point you are eluding. .

Iván
            
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