For my Libertarian friends

The South will rise again!

(slavery and all)

Edited by Kestrel - December 15 2010 at 22:30

Equality 7-2521 wrote: When Lincoln uttered that phrase he was referring to the entire that government. For the record, that was after he has suspended Habeas Corpus for Americans, imprisoned Congressmen, and was in the process of destroying a country which had the audacity to withdraw from the supposed contract that is the Constitution. The Congress doesn't represent you just because it was named the representative branch. It certainly doesn't represent me.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like Lincoln. Sic semper tyrannis, indeed.

When Lincoln uttered that phrase he was referring to the entire that government. For the record, that was after he has suspended Habeas Corpus for Americans, imprisoned Congressmen, and was in the process of destroying a country which had the audacity to withdraw from the supposed contract that is the Constitution.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Question: Why does the average person feel a sort of loyalty or connectedness to their government? They see the millions of lives governments have been responsible for taking. They've most likely never have had their government respond to a request of theirs in anyway. The government has done essentially nothing for them aside from taking wealth and freedom. Why then the love of your country's government? I'm interested in some answers to this. I thought T the Psychologist would have weighed in on this one.

Well, I was only able to give you mine. Im not in the heads of other so I can only speak for myself.
If I had to take an educated guess, they are dumb/brainwashed/its all they really know?

The T wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Question: Why does the average person feel a sort of loyalty or connectedness to their government? They see the millions of lives governments have been responsible for taking. They've most likely never have had their government respond to a request of theirs in anyway. The government has done essentially nothing for them aside from taking wealth and freedom. Why then the love of your country's government? I'm interested in some answers to this. I thought T the Psychologist would have weighed in on this one.   I guess that, just as people cling to believe in something in order to bring some structure, even some peace into their lives, I'm sure most people are really comfortable having this entity above them that, in theory, solves a lot of their problems, runs a lot of the services they need, and provides security, all this, again, in theory. It's like the big mother, the big god, the big peace-giving idea that lets people sleep at night. Another explanation is how it has been the way society has been structured for generations, centuries, and people are just much more comfortable following what kind of worked once than trying something that might fail. It's the way things are when you're born, and people just probably can't conceive of a government-less life...  And that in this country where government is somewhat limited. Imagine in third world countries like mine where there are millions in poverty; government seems like the big uncle that will ultimately stop them from starving or dying of poor health or from living without a roof after a big tragedy. Populists use this weakness to have people love them. Like in Venezuela, where the poor are the ones supporting Chavez, who continue to eliminate freedoms and rights but maintains power by giving houses and food to the poor.  I guess plain influence is also a reason, a stupidly simple but very real one.  If everybody else agrees with it, who am I to say government is not necessary? Just like people will say that something white is black just because 20 people said it was before them, people prefer to go with the flow. You are an exception Pat, somewhat of a virus in the system. Even intelligent, freedom-oriented people like Brian or I see the government as a necessary evil. Maybe we're also wrong but maybe we are also too comfortable with this notion to risk everything for a change. Yes, maybe for a change that might be even better.  People are sold the idea that the country they were born in is as important as your family, and then the government is the final representation of that, so nationalism might also sometimes lead to love for the government, Though that idea doesn't quite apply in the US where most nationalists are actually anti-government; maybe because they know the country's real purpose when founded was one where government power had to be controlled?  Maybe it's just mental laziness, comfort.

You probably have little interaction with immigrants. I have more. I have known of actual illegal immigrant. Many of them are hired for miserable wages and given no kind of days off, make to work as slaves, receive next to nothing, and sometimes are even robbed of their money; employers just tell them "who are you? If you try to make me pay you I'll denounce you to immigration". I see that as one little evidence of the beauty of totally un-regulated employers. I understand that the miserable wages and the slave-like jobs are part of the "free" deal between employer and employee, but how free it really is when one can just not pay the other and even threatens him in case he tries to sue him? That's what scares m of full unregulated for profit businesses. The repugnancy of people hungry for money and wealth may reach no limits... 

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Question: Why does the average person feel a sort of loyalty or connectedness to their government? They see the millions of lives governments have been responsible for taking. They've most likely never have had their government respond to a request of theirs in anyway. The government has done essentially nothing for them aside from taking wealth and freedom. Why then the love of your country's government? I'm interested in some answers to this. I thought T the Psychologist would have weighed in on this one.

 

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Question: Why does the average person feel a sort of loyalty or connectedness to their government? They see the millions of lives governments have been responsible for taking. They've most likely never have had their government respond to a request of theirs in anyway. The government has done essentially nothing for them aside from taking wealth and freedom. Why then the love of your country's government?

I'm interested in some answers to this. I thought T the Psychologist would have weighed in on this one.

The T wrote: The problem I see is that, for Pat's system to work well, for the market to be able to really regulate everythig by itself in the described way where monopolies cease to exist if they start abusing their power or workers who are exploited can freely go and find a better job, the market has to be really, totally free. The system has to be almost government-less. But let's face it: how likely is that to happen? The problem is, yes, we de-regulate and that would seem like a step in the right direction towards a full free market, but under present conditions, the only thig we would be actually accomplishing is giving even more power to corporations, banks, and less to those customers and workers for whom a fully free market would in theory work. Unless the change of system is swift and radical, I see de-regulations as potentially very dangerous.

You begin by criticizing the theory of a free-market by attacking its practicality. Can't really take on  a mixture of the two.

Your assumption really isn't founded. Why does the market have to be totally free? You just need to remove governmental barriers to entry, agreements of exclusivity, and subsidies/taxes which selectively single out industries.

Could you explain how deregulation would give the banks and corporations more power? Their power comes from the government! Wealthy bankers used the government to create the Federal Reserve and form their banking cartel. The government hands billions of dollars to banks and other corporations stolen from the common man. The government imposes liability caps and blocks law suites which threaten the most influential corporations. You're believing a sham. Everyone outside of the system hates big business, the big lie that has been sold is that government is fighting to bring down business interests. People keep selling away more money, power, and moral sanction to the government to do so and they continue to prop businesses up further and further.

The problem I see is that, for Pat's system to work well, for the market to be able to really regulate everythig by itself in the described way where monopolies cease to exist if they start abusing their power or workers who are exploited can freely go and find a better job, the market has to be really, totally free. The system has to be almost government-less. But let's face it: how likely is that to happen? The problem is, yes, we de-regulate and that would seem like a step in the right direction towards a full free market, but under present conditions, the only thig we would be actually accomplishing is giving even more power to corporations, banks, and less to those customers and workers for whom a fully free market would in theory work. Unless the change of system is swift and radical, I see de-regulations as potentially very dangerous.