For my Libertarian friends

"If you don't like Socialism then give up your police dept and fire dept."

GaryB wrote: "If you don't like Socialism then give up your police dept and fire dept." I have heard this many times from a few musician friends who are liberals. I was under the impression that most libs had no problem with big government. Or do they just want to pick and choose what suits them best. "Most people follow reasonable laws..." Do they have the right to ignore laws that they feel are unreasonable? Again, pick and choose. "GaryB's pessimism about human nature..." After an earthquake, flood, tornado, etc. looters hit the streets to steal or burn whatever they can. They are not all career criminals. Far too many of them are people who would not normally break a store window and carry off a color TV. But, when they see that law enforcement has it's hands full and they can get away with it, they do it.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: JJLehto wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: ^I'd love to see Shields in trolling mode... I can imagine he would get banned in about 3 minutes  I have no idea how I haven't been banned for a handful of things I've done here. And lol you hate fire fighters? I can see the cops but jeez man. Solely because they are government? Because there's really no reason to dislike them... It's a service that has traditionally be done for free by volunteers, but big city fire fighters unions have hijacked this public service into one of the biggest con jobs passed onto the taxpayer. They inflate their salaries above any reasonable levels  in a way that only an artificial monopoly can.  I have no problem with volunteer fire fighters.

Ah.

Question: Why does the average person feel a sort of loyalty or connectedness to their government?

Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: Bump. WE are the long thread here...  More and more do I realize I agree with a lot of libertarian principles. Even my view of gun control has clearly changed in the past months, reading and thinking about why is it an issue anyway. So far, I can say there's just a few things that I just can't alter... I still believe in welfare, providing for people in dire need, and I still believe there are quite a few institutions that have to be run or owned by a government (police, fire, justice, roads etc... the government is "we the people" after all) and, of course, I still hate the for-profit healthcare system. But in most other issues the divide is not so great, I can say.  The libertarian cancer has begun to spread in you. You can't stop it. It's only a matter of time.

Unfortunately, all government funding to find a cure has been suspended.

I have a question. We've talked about poverty and how people are responsible for their own situation and that some people are just bad with money and some are just plain lazy. Now, minorities like blacks are very stricken by poverty, as it is known. Assuming this to be true, and keeping in mind your views of people and wealth, what does it mean in regards to minorities? That they are worse at managing wealth? That are work less? If we fully blame people for their situation, this is what we would be saying. Or is it also because they come from a past when they had much less oportunities? If so, wouldn't that justify measures like afirmative action and related? Or, as I can expect, would you say that is precisely these kind of policies plus welfare that have pushed a big percentage of minorities to poverty?

I have also embraced many more libertarian stances over the last couple of years, Teo.

It's still not good enough for these guys though, since Anton once claimed a lot of my views are "pragmatic" and not based on believing in freedom.
I never knew!

And to answer Pat. I don't know. I can't vouch for others.
As for myself, one thing that I thought was clear but maybe...I don't exactly love the government...
It's not a matter of that for me, but I do trust them more than private sector.

THAT is what ir comes down to me.  I trust the government more than private sector, which should say something.

And as for your point, it's well documented in here I hate our foreign policy, and has done many many wrongs. Supporting the government over private sector in general does not mean I think "oh, all those bad things are not a big deal". Finally, as much as this must drive you crazy....we are not a police state.
I honestly don't think our rights have been excessively curbed, and you are all or nothing. 100% rights or nada.
I believe a bit of middle ground is not a fascist state.

TO LONG DIDN'T READ VERSION: The guvment is the lesser of 2 evils



Edited by JJLehto - December 13 2010 at 23:11

Equality 7-2521 wrote: I don't see how you can justify the statement our rights haven't been curbed. Have you read the Patriot Act?  Why do you trust the government more than the private sector?

Again, I'm not exactly sitting here beaming with pride at our government.
The Patriot Act was terrible, an absolute abomination that was pretty useless as well IMO.
I could never decide if it was a simply an act to look good or an honest attempt to curtail our rights by that administration.

And I said excessively curbed. Not saying it's never happened. The Patriot Act is a great example of when it was excessive. But, I am a realist.
You are right.

Rights are rights, even hindering one is a bad thing and makes the government oppressive. But in reality, compare the US to, well a real dictatorship or ones of the past. Calling us a police state, I don't even want to know what that would make nazi germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao, etc etc!

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Are there not degrees of police state?

Fine, well then....I see the US as being a very very low level one.
H/o bro, massive rambling and probably illogical answer to you coming soon.

And why?

Part of it is paranoia.
Part of it is that the private sector is there to make profit. I have NO problem with this, let it be said. However, as being out there solely to make profit, I just don't have faith in putting important things in their hands.

I'm guessing you'll say any company that cuts too many corners or whatever will end up messing up and will be cut out of the market. I'd like it not happen at all though, and without going into it much...without any regulation IMO bigger companies/wall street all that fun stuff can also take huge, unnecessary gambles or just act irresponsibly.
The higher ups will make out fine.

Maybe its my paranoid imagination but it seems today the drive for profit even at bad behavior is more so than ever in history. Like, ultimate short term gain at the expense of others and why should the higher ups care? They're fine.
Also, in a total free market...wouldn't monopolies end up forming? That's not really a situation I want, especially in your world were about everything would be in their hands.


Drugs should still be legalized, government should have nothing to do with marriage in any way, businesses should be privately owned, I strongly support small business. There should be no hindering freedom of speech, when I hear a story of a town going onto someones property saying they have to remove their specific religious symbol...I am disgusted. Taxes and government spending are one thing but I do hate government waste and have expressed support of severely limiting recycling programs (liberal rage storm would be caused by this eh?), and have said  I would be ok with Rob's ideas of very de-centralized and locally supported healthcare and more families should have the option for homeschooling instead of public.

Hope that shows I have some balance and sanity!




Edited by JJLehto - December 14 2010 at 00:01