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Blacksword 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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 Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:38 |
 Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
In some circles it is still considered 'un-patriotic' to question the actions of your government.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:44 |
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
^ I think there's a fine line between perspective and right and wrong.
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It's the old 'freedom fighter' vs 'Terrorist' debate.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:48 |
Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
Yes Kennedy said that. Quite odd to think about. When put in perspective, goverments seem to have the power to manipulate human nature, the survival instinct, and just regular old common sense. For instance, why we think it's ok that we are in the middle of a war where we drop depleted uranium on little brown people, with a civilian casualty count that goes beyond belief. It's not ok, it's wrong, and no one seems to care..
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caretaker
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 19 2010
Location: united states
Status: Offline
Points: 288
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:50 |
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After careful thought and since the question was "would you?" and not "will you?", I'll say yes. But then, I'm a Libertarian.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:55 |
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
Yes Kennedy said that. Quite odd to think about. When put in perspective, goverments seem to have the power to manipulate human nature, the survival instinct, and just regular old common sense. For instance, why we think it's ok that we are in the middle of a war where we drop depleted uranium on little brown people, with a civilian casualty count that goes beyond belief. It's not ok, it's wrong, and no one seems to care.. |
You'd be suprised how many people do care about such things, but the tragedy is that they are powerless to do anything about it. One million people marched through London in protest about the plans to go into Iraq. There were protests in every city, but our leaders ignored us. Since then there have been firther protests, albeit smaller in scale, but still big, organised by the Stop the war Coalition, and mainstream media has not reported them. They are clearly under instruction not to draw attention to anti war groups.
In short people care, but their governments ignore them.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 05:02 |
Blacksword wrote:
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
Yes Kennedy said that. Quite odd to think about. When put in perspective, goverments seem to have the power to manipulate human nature, the survival instinct, and just regular old common sense. For instance, why we think it's ok that we are in the middle of a war where we drop depleted uranium on little brown people, with a civilian casualty count that goes beyond belief. It's not ok, it's wrong, and no one seems to care.. |
You'd be suprised how many people do care about such things, but the tragedy is that they are powerless to do anything about it. One million people marched through London in protest about the plans to go into Iraq. There were protests in every city, but our leaders ignored us. Since then there have been firther protests, albeit smaller in scale, but still big, organised by the Stop the war Coalition, and mainstream media has not reported them. They are clearly under instruction not to draw attention to anti war groups.
In short people care, but their governments ignore them. |
I know there's people out there. I'm mostly just talking about allot of my peers. Being nineteen I can't even get people to think about things like this. And, from my experience, the mainstream media doesn't report anything. Private journalism is something I've tried to follow. Although sometimes the story's are very hard to read.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 05:16 |
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
Yes Kennedy said that. Quite odd to think about. When put in perspective, goverments seem to have the power to manipulate human nature, the survival instinct, and just regular old common sense. For instance, why we think it's ok that we are in the middle of a war where we drop depleted uranium on little brown people, with a civilian casualty count that goes beyond belief. It's not ok, it's wrong, and no one seems to care.. |
You'd be suprised how many people do care about such things, but the tragedy is that they are powerless to do anything about it. One million people marched through London in protest about the plans to go into Iraq. There were protests in every city, but our leaders ignored us. Since then there have been firther protests, albeit smaller in scale, but still big, organised by the Stop the war Coalition, and mainstream media has not reported them. They are clearly under instruction not to draw attention to anti war groups.
In short people care, but their governments ignore them. |
I know there's people out there. I'm mostly just talking about allot of my peers. Being nineteen I can't even get people to think about things like this.And, from my experience, the mainstream media doesn't report anything. Private journalism is something I've tried to follow. Although sometimes the story's are very hard to read. |
I know exactly what you mean, when you say your peers don't care or don't seem to care. It frustrates me sometimes that my friends will only go so far in any discussion about politics, when the discussion becomes philisophical, they are out of their depth straight away. Most believe what they see on the teatime news, not because they intentionally swallow anything dished up to them by the mainstream media, but simply because it's easier than to question what they're told.
A note of caution about independent news media. There is no such thing as 'un-biased' news, mainstream or otherwise. All news organisations have an agenda of somekind, even if they claim to be impartial. That includes everything from the BBC to Prisonplanet.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 05:26 |
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Yes I know. When it comes down to it we can only guess as to what the true motives are. Story's written by Iraqi family's are where I base allot of my opinion of the war. That and common sense of course.
You gotta wonder why these very big events don't seem to phase people at all though?
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TheProgtologist
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
Status: Offline
Points: 27802
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 05:29 |
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I laid my life on the line for my country for 12 years,so the answer is yes.I know I sound like a brainwashed drone,but when your country needs you to fight,you fight.The apathy and selfishness of the current generation makes me sick,millions of people selflessly laid their lives on the line and paid the ultimate price for the freedom that you enjoy.
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 05:39 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
I laid my life on the line for my country for 12 years,so the answer is yes.I know I sound like a brainwashed drone,but when your country needs you to fight,you fight.The apathy and selfishness of the current generation makes me sick,millions of people selflessly laid their lives on the line and paid the ultimate price for the freedom that you enjoy. |
See, this is where I become divided on this topic. Sometimes I believe war is the only answer left, and I'd certaintly never discredit a veteran or anyone who's actually put his life on the line. But with the current war I just do not understand why it's happening, and I don't agree with the way our goverment is pursuing it. But what the heck do I know?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 06:15 |
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This country has a horrible record of taking care of it's vets, so hat's off to all who choose to serve. Speaking personally, I would make a lousy soldier, because I couldn't stand taking orders from someone who isn't smarter than me.
Now to mix threads: only if Marijuana were legalized.
Edited by Slartibartfast - November 18 2010 at 06:17
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 06:16 |
Textbook wrote:
I wouldn't.
I think one of the more profound sociological changes in the last few decades (the sentiment doesn't begin with Vietnam but it snowballs from there) is that people feel a lot more resentful about things their government/countries ask them to do. The internet is increasingly making us feel like citizens of the world itself and less beholden to a particular region or system. Which I think is a good thing because it's paving the way for global organisations and co-operation which we'll need to tackle global problems. Countries sink things like fighting climate change because they all try to get everybody else to do everything and play the blame game. The less importance people give them, the more people might be inclined to ignore borders and boundaries and just do what's best.
Personally, the more I learn and experience the more obvious it becomes that countries are essentially fictitious and that politicians do not care about the individual human lives of their populace. (Arguably though, being a politician would be unworkable if they did.) What is important to me is human life and I would die to save family, friends and even strangers. But my country? Preserving a particular political agenda? No. I would go to the toilet on the flag, set it on fire and then do a little dance on the ashes on camera if a terrorist said the alternative was for me to be shot, because respecting a little piece of cloth is hardly more important than surviving to be with my family and raise my children.
Often the two get mixed up- for example I would've taken up arms against Hitler had I been eligible to do so, but not "for the country" but rather because he posed a direct threat to human wellbeing. But the idea that I would lay down my life simply because a member of my country's government asked me to is anathema. |
Yes, you're right , it snowballed with Nam; but because no-one had dared to do the same in Korea and/or Algeria
Counter-culturte gave balls to the tender cannon-meat sent into the trenches...
However, it's mostly that Nam was not USA's war proper (neither was Korea or the European WWII, though), but it clearly appealed that Vietnam was also not just a cold war oir decolonization act, but also a industrial interests (not just weapons or chemicals) war.
The Nam situation was clearly no danger or even a remote menace to the USA's security (China's backing of the Viet Minhs was not exactly Russian expansion), but the CIA fabricated proof (like in Irak).
It was not only non-vital to US citizens' freedom, but obviously the communist-fears after the McCarthy witch hunt or inquisition years of the previous decade, most young students saw the benefits of a controlled market economy. To top it all of, their indistry magnate's kids found ways not to fight, and let the lower classes' kids get butchered on the battlefields with weapons they were keen to sell.
Let's not forget that the first warmongers are weapon builders
----------------
anyway, back to your question....
Of course not, there is no stupidest cause than your country to die for....
Mind you, if I had lived in 39 and knew of the atrocities the Nazis would perpetrate, I'd probably have joined the ranks of the resistance or fought from the UK
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 06:44 |
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It's very easy to say a strong yes or no to that question from the comfort of your armchair whilst swearing at the politicians from the safety of your own home, but very few of us actually know what we would do if it actually came to the crunch (whether you were ordered to be in a situation or volunteered through principle).
For myself, I genuinely don't know.
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 07:04 |
Jim Garten wrote:
It's very easy to say a strong yes or no to that question from the comfort of your armchair whilst swearing at the politicians from the safety of your own home, but very few of us actually know what we would do if it actually came to the crunch (whether you were ordered to be in a situation or volunteered through principle).
For myself, I genuinely don't know. |
Indeed, it difficult to know exactly how you'd feel in such times. If boat loads of invaders arrived at our shores, I would fight if called upon to do so, but only because I would probably sh*t enough bricks to build an effective barricade.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 07:09 |
I'd prefer to kill for my country. If there's any dying involved on my part, I'd rather not. Unless it's tie dieing. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - November 18 2010 at 07:10
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 08:16 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
I'd prefer to kill for my country.
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No you don't. 
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 08:44 |
Textbook wrote:
By "for your country" I mean because the government asks so, reasons irrelevant. This may seem like an idiotic prospect to people today- I'm not going to die just because a politician requests it- but not that long ago you would have found plenty of people who felt it was their solemn duty to leap under a passing bus if their queen or president requested it. What I'm saying is that feeling has deteriorated (well not everywhere, it's very much alive in China for example) and now people are saying either "no" or "yes but only if there was some sort of threat" which actually means no because you're reacting to the threat, not the will of the country's leaders. |
If that's your criteria, then of course not. I thought you were asking in the traditional sense of dying to protect and defend your country, and the values for which it stands.
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caretaker
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 19 2010
Location: united states
Status: Offline
Points: 288
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 09:30 |
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Where's Epignosis?
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66253
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 10:09 |
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I am pretty certain that my answer to this question has always been and would still be "no". Aside from a couple of fights in elementary school in which I was defending myself I have avoided physical conflict my entire life. I am not a hunter and have never fired a gun, so would probably be useless to my country in a conflict anyways.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 10:11 |
thellama73 wrote:
Textbook wrote:
By "for your country" I mean because the government asks so, reasons irrelevant. This may seem like an idiotic prospect to people today- I'm not going to die just because a politician requests it- but not that long ago you would have found plenty of people who felt it was their solemn duty to leap under a passing bus if their queen or president requested it. What I'm saying is that feeling has deteriorated (well not everywhere, it's very much alive in China for example) and now people are saying either "no" or "yes but only if there was some sort of threat" which actually means no because you're reacting to the threat, not the will of the country's leaders. |
If that's your criteria, then of course not. I thought you were asking in the traditional sense of dying to protect and defend your country, and the values for which it stands.
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Would You Die For Your Country?
