Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?

Ah but I don't count the vast swathes of people who "say" they belong to a religion but don't actually practise it in their lives. I mean there's HUGE amounts of people who will say they are Christian because they think it's a good thing to aspire to but then don't actually DO anything at all. To count as a Muslim in my book, you must live by the koran and Islamic principles. I do not see the number of people who do this increasing at all.

Yes I've noticed that he'll stick absolutely to the original bible as the unquestionable word of god at one moment and then go with a marketing-friendly revisionist stance the next. Still, I'd like him to answer that question himself.

But why on earth do you think the total number of Muslims is increasing? If you actually look at the changes going on or talk to people from there, you'll notice they're becoming more and more westernised and apathetic about their religion. The dawa programme launched to peacefully convert westerners to Islam has been (quietly) pronounced dead in the water and it seems that the Saudi government have decided that economic prosperity and good international relations are a much much higher priority than getting everyone to be a muslim because they (again quietly) don't think it would ever happen in a million years. While they talk a fundamentalist game in order to save face, really they know that fundamentalism is absolutely toxic to their nation's standing in the international scene and are (once again, quietly) pushing away from it.

Working closely as I do with so many Arab people, I can say that the "Muslim tide" is a fairy tale. None of them really believe. They leave class early to go to the mosque on Friday but instead they go to eat pizza and quite cheerfully flaunt all the rules of the koran, smoking, drinking and sleeping around. The thing is they're human just like everyone else and once exposed to normal unrestricted life, a large number of them will choose to live in the real world, not according to something someone has told them in order to maintain their own authority. I predict that just as with Christianity, Islam will fade further and further. It has only remained relatively strong because of its insularity. As Muslims increasingly travel abroad and connect up with technology, we can expect that to change.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Incidentally: Unrealistic? I don't think this is far fetched. Granted, those millions of people aren't all "infiltrating" society with that purpose in mind (indeed I think few of them are even thinking about these issues), but I do think that many of them could be "mobilized" by clever leaders, when the time is right.

I had seen the first video already and pretty much agreed with everything it contained.

However, has it been established how accurate a translation is represented by the subtitles of the second video? If it is a faithful translation of what the interviewee is saying, 'to the letter' he is not condoning violence but merely urging European Muslims to aspire to western ideas of respectability and credibility e.g. become wealthy and successful with a view to helping spread the religion amongst influential people. The idea of 'freedom of speech' for the west equating with the sacredness of the Koran is rather ironic
I think: Dissenters of freedom of speech perpetuate most of the violence designed to stifle same and dissenters of the Koran are the victims of violence designed to expand its influence.
He does however play the 'pogrom' card very strongly and asks us to associate every instance of social violence/unrest involving a Muslim population as that engineered by the 'infidel' as provocation to drive Islam out of Europe. Frankly the latter is disingenuous bollocks.


Edited by ExittheLemming - November 12 2010 at 20:50

ExittheLemming wrote: The T wrote: You're all so insecure... Specially the little bigots who cry "delusion" and need the internet to prove their manhood... Poor little creeps who are probably peeping toms for women since they probably can't get off their computer chairs to go live in a normal world... Mike and Ivan have had a sometimes war-like argument here but both are reasonable people... but when post-pubescent waste like Nightshine appears, the forum becomes a sanctuary for idiocy....  Bravo, I'd have been proud of that one

You don't have copyrights on that one... I would love to use it in a couple of places...

Evolver wrote: thellama73 wrote: I just don't get why it bothers atheists so much that their beliefs are not universally shared. I see this all the time. I have a lot of friends who believe in the ridiculous fiction of man caused global warming, but it only bothers me when they try to tell which lightbulbs I have to buy.

Would you like to elaborate on that point?

Mr ProgFreak wrote: The main claim which I made I also provided evidence for: I don't believe in any gods. I also made other specific claims that I also provided evidence for - you simply ignored the evidence, which is something that you're entitled to do.

thellama73 wrote: I just don't get why it bothers atheists so much that their beliefs are not universally shared. I see this all the time. I have a lot of friends who believe in the ridiculous fiction of man caused global warming, but it only bothers me when they try to tell which lightbulbs I have to buy.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Adams Bolero wrote: This thread should be closed. It has reached the nadir of senseless name calling. I gave my opinion months ago but I realise there's no point anymore. The 3 heavy hitter atheists have descended into bad tempered and foul mouthed rants.There's no reasoned discussion here. Textbook, Mike and Nightshine I bid you all good day. Learn to respect people's beliefs no matter how much you disagree. We're all trying to find meaning in our lives and human beings will always differ on what they find the meaning to be. Some will find no meaning but still carry on . A little human compassion and sympathy is what's needed. Religion can do good things and bad things and so can atheism. It's we humans that's the problem. Discussions like this get so heated because we're talking about something that is central to who we are whether we're religious or an atheist. But we should never let these arguments undermine the basic principles of respect and restraint. Once we do we should stop such discussions. You, Sir, are a troll. Now please, with sugar on the top, will you leave this bleeping thread alone?

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: It's not only absolutely relevant but also essential Mike, the one starting a thread or questioning other people's beliefs is the one making a claim, and he who makes the claim has to prove it.