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nandprogger 
Forum Newbie 
Joined: April 18 2009 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 15 |
 Posted: November 04 2010 at 21:24 |
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The italian prog is very peculiar that, but when we think of this ecletic prog is very comprehensive. But we could open up a subgenus for exemple: would be the IONA CELTIC PROG instead of folk prog |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15121 |
Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:12 |
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Hi Ivan! Thanks a lot for your engaged and detailed comments. It has been very fruitful to get them. 1. What to do with “neo-prog”? Well, in my opinion it’s best to keep the definition from the 80’s, so “neo-prog” is equal to the symphonic style from the 80’s. And that we classify all the newer prog according to their styles and not just call all of it “neo-prog”. But I better write “neo-symphonic (neo-prog)” instead of just “neo-prog” in my proposal. Thanks. 2. How to classify Zeuhl? As the first thing here can I say that for the sake of simplicity, I think it’s good to keep the number of the main sub-genres as low as possible. Then, I’d say that comparing with the other styles/sub-genres, Zeuhl is more avangardish. So, wouldn’t it be OK to put it together with the usual “avant-prog”? Also because some bands, like for instance Happy Family and other Japanese, play music in the middle between Zeuhl and the usual “avant-prog”. So, there is already an overlap between Zeuhl and the usual “avant-prog”. 3. Space-rock as a part of psychedelic? Here, I just don’t understand your objection as both to me and almost everbody else, space-rock is psychedelic. So you’re more than welcome to write more on that. 4. Your objection to that of “my” sub-genres which I have called “heavy prog”and described as You write: “Heavy Metal or Prog Metal are a completely different specie that Heavy Prog (which IMO should be called Hard Prog to make a difference), bands like Uriah Heep or Titanic, have nothing in common with Dream Theater.“ Yes! I understand very well your objection, as I’ve defined “heavy prog” (for myself) in a quite different way then the usual one but I’ve described it misleading where I mention it. I should have written: “* heavy prog, defined as all the sub-genres of heavy metal which can be considered progressive”, because that’s how I’ll suggest we define it. Thanks again. More about, how I’d like to define “heavy prog” and how, I’ll suggest, we classify what you’d like to call “Hard Prog”, have I written in one of my previous comments (posted 4 November European time), and that is: “As the main thing here, I would not consider “hard-rock” as a major style equal to “my” main sub-genres/styles. So, I’ll suggest that we either have to do with some music where the heavy elements are very pronounced, and in that case we classified it as a part of the main sub-genre, I have defined as “heavy prog”. – And here I’ll surely include Dream Theater. - Or, we have to do with some music where other elements are more dominating, and in that case we classified it as one of “my” other main sub-genres. But in that case we can talk about sub-subgenres, for instance “hard symphonic prog” which I think would be a proper characteristic of Rush. Or another examples could here be “hard jazz-rock”, as for instance label for Liquid Tension Experiment, or “hard folk-rock” as the characteristic of the Peruvian band Flor de Loto.” Yes, including a note about some of your countrymen.
Well, that’s what I’ll write in this post but I’ll be very glad to hear some more from you, and can you tell me if there is any other Peruvian band similar to Flor de Loto or maybe less hard. Or maybe from one of your neighbouring countries, that is except Los Jaivas which I know already and also am quite fond of.
Cheers Edited by David_D - November 08 2010 at 19:58 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:17 |
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Actually I endorse the idea of making it one heavy prog category rather than the separate prog metal category because it is indeed all heavy rock end of the day, even if metal has its own unique nuances that make it different from other hard rock based music. It would remove the fiction of Black Sabbath being in a prog related category and Nightwish being in prog metal. Of course, the reason the site has to have different categories is simply that a bunch of people thought up the name prog metal for, probably, Dream Theater in the 80s and it has caught on and is regarded as entirely different from the likes of Rush, Heep etc. To lump them into heavy prog now would cause a lot of confusion.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 05 2010 at 11:25 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 05 2010 at 11:30 |
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No idea about native Peruvian music and to what extent it is part of Peruvian prog but unlike French Theatric Symphonic, Indian music is a whole system of music completely separate from and evolved independently of the broad Western music system, so there's no question that it is a more unique case. However, the more innovative of those artists blending Western and Indian music influences tend to go for jazz or even classical rather than rock, which puts them out of the bounds of this website.
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The Truth
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 19 2009 Location: Kansas Status: Offline Points: 21795 |
Posted: November 05 2010 at 11:50 |
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There is no truer way to define prog other than "that weird sh*t I listen to". That's how all my friends describe it anyways.
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15121 |
Posted: November 05 2010 at 16:49 |
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Sorry for my misunderstanding about PA and thanks for your new comments and the band list, Ivan. I'm looking forward to check the bands out.
David
Edited by David_D - November 08 2010 at 12:28 |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15121 |
Posted: November 05 2010 at 18:12 |
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Similarly to prog folk, which I prefer to call prog folk-rock, I'll propose that we define symphonic prog in a global scope, meaning that it include the "classical music" from the entire world. But that pressumes of course syntheses with rock.
How about that? Edited by David_D - November 08 2010 at 12:29 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 05 2010 at 23:03 |
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I highly doubt that classical in the context of symphonic prog means all styles of classical from the world and am quite certain that it refers to Western classical music. That is, if it does not have elements of Western classical music, it is not symphonic prog. Indo prog could sorta go into eclectic, I don't know, never understood what exactly that term means.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 06 2010 at 00:37 |
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I always believed that the term Prof Folk or Folk Prog is too identified with Celtic or British Pastoral influenced music, and misleads, like for example, somebody who finds Los Jaivas could feel disappointed because they don't sound as Jethro Tull or The Strawbs. That's why I propose to change it to ETHNIC PROG, which covers more the variety of national influences.}} Iván
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15121 |
Posted: November 06 2010 at 16:17 |
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That's a splendid idea, Ivan, which I'll try to incorporate in my article as soon as possible but that requires some bigger changes. Do you maybe have a similar proposal concerning symphonic prog, so it covers the "classical music" from the entire world? Edited by David_D - November 08 2010 at 12:30 |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15121 |
Posted: November 06 2010 at 16:32 |
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What "classical" means is a matter of convention. Now I suggest that we define it as the "classical" music of the entire world, but maybe it would be better then to call the symphonic prog for something else. Do you have any suggestions?
Edited by David_D - November 08 2010 at 12:32 |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15121 |
Posted: November 06 2010 at 17:23 |
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Now I think that I've got a pretty good idea. What would you guys say to call this "global symphonic prog" simply classical prog? Does that sounds as OK to you as it does to me?
Edited by David_D - November 08 2010 at 12:34 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 06 2010 at 22:33 |
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As you can read in the Symphonic definition I wrote, I'm not very happy with the name Symphonic, being that the term means nothing IMO, but it's so spread and well known, that would be impossible to change it. Iván
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 06 2010 at 23:06 |
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Indeed it is, and strictly speaking, classical is not even supposed to imply general Western orchestral music, but we'll leave that aside for the moment. Indian classical music is not really referred to as CLASSICAL by its own exponents here because classical is a Western attribute to begin with. We just call it Carnatic and Hindustani here. And I must stress again, there is no comparison between British or Italian classical music on the one hand and Carnatic and Hindustani on the other because the former are still only forms of WESTERN classical music, the latter are completely different. Rock or jazz fused with Indian classical music would not resemble rock fused with Western classical music at all. There is also no scope imo to accommodate rock-Indian classical synthesis within the umbrella of symphonic prog.
Edited by rogerthat - November 06 2010 at 23:07 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 06 2010 at 23:09 |
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However, I don't necessarily advocate a separate Indo prog category for the same reasons that Ivan gave, it's just too small. It could be lumped in fusion imo, no harm done!
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15121 |
Posted: November 07 2010 at 02:56 |
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Come on Ivan, say never "never". I know it's not gonna be easy and take time but that's the case with changing "prog folk" to "ethnic prog", too. The most important thing is that we believe they're the right thing to do, and, as I just wrote in my article many people around the world will be very happy with these changes. So we gonna give it a try. And yes, I've already made the required changes in my article for the "new" classical prog and ethnic folk - as I just couldn't wait with that. Edited by David_D - November 08 2010 at 12:36 |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15121 |
Posted: November 07 2010 at 04:06 |
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As the first thing, again, I'm talking not only about including the Indian music but in principle the "classical music" of the entire world - which means for instance also Japanese and Chinese. Then, I can't see it as a big problem the differences from Western classical. We can say that what they have in common is their origins as the historical music of upper classes, and that's how we can define "the new", global in scope, classical music. As we could say, folk, or the global in scope ethnic music, has it's origin in lower classes.
Neither can I see a big problem in the fact that non Western "classical music" fused with rock will have some differences from the classic symphonic prog. I mean that should not be so relevant in the matter of justice classification. Contrary, the most important thing here must be that we use the same logic, and, I'll say, that we don't discriminate.
Further, I'm not talking just about purely theoretical terms. Syntheses of non Western "classical" and rock exists. And that is the case with Japanese, Chinese, Indian, Andalusian, Indonesian and some other too.
So, I think, we should give it a chance.
Something entire else is that I just wrote at the other, "minimalist", prog definition debate that from my, surely speciel, point of view the essence of prog is making syntheses. And now when we discuss these different things, I've found more syntheses than before, if used a broad prog definition: syntheses of different styles, past (folk) and future (avantgarde), upper classes (classical) and lower classes (rock, folk), synthesis of different countries and surely also some other.
Wow! Now I'm even more impressed with prog than before - veery interesting music! Edited by David_D - November 08 2010 at 20:02 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 07 2010 at 04:18 |
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I only focused on Indian because there's an Indo prog category. I think there would be problems with lumping Japanese, Chinese, Indian etc all in one basket as 'classical'. Reason being that apart from the socio-cultural factor of classical music forms historically being upper class music - would like to verify this but will accept the assumption for the sake of discussion - there is not much musical common ground between these styles. I think Ivan's idea of an ethnic prog category for all music styles that are not rooted in the Western medium is a better one.
But the classification then is on some historical basis which does not directly relate to some musical basis of classifying the music. Ok, we could put all prog rock with strong influence of some or other classical music in one category but it would not be particularly helpful. For instance, prog that is Western classical based, say Renaissance, may be less improvised in nature but Indo-Western fusion would lean towards jazz because improvisation is a very key element of Indian classical music. Even on classifying such cross-country synthesis as ethnic, we are only putting them in a sort of geographical basket but at least this would establish that said basket includes music that involves synthesis of rock/folk/jazz with some or other non-Western classical/non-classical music. That leads to the other problem with a global classical prog category: what happens to music that draws Oriental or Eastern elements without the same necessarily being the classical music of those countries? Say, qawali. |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15121 |
Posted: November 07 2010 at 08:49 |
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A good explanation of the problem, rogerthat, and now I can see it, too. Thanks.
But then again, what do you think of a term for traditional ("folk") music in a global scope, because that's how Ivan has proposed that we use "ethnic prog". He has written:
I always believed that the term Prog Folk or ,Folk Prog is too identified with Celtic or British Pastoral influenced music, and misleads, like for example, somebody who finds Los Jaivas could feel disappointed because they don't sound as Jethro Tull or The Strawbs.
That's why I propose to change it to ETHNIC PROG, which covers more the variety of national influences.}} Edited by David_D - November 08 2010 at 12:40 |
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How to define and classify progressive rock?
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David_D wrote: