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Padraic 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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 Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:25 |
 Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The T wrote:
I guess this could start another debate: do you believe in separation of church and state? Is it on the constitution? |
Yes I believe in it. I don't believe the state can endorse anything. Equality under the law would forbid it doing such a thing
Separation of Church and State is not in the Constitution. The phrase originated in a correspondence that Thomas Jefferson had. The amendment states that the Federal government can have no official religion or make laws restricting the practicing of religion.
For a long time states had official religions and used tax money to fund the Churches. The Constitution applies to the federal government always remember. I don't agree with official state religions obviously as I said above, but if we're talking about what the document says, then that's simply what it says.
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That's right, the idea being that if you didn't want any official religion in your state, you would work to create state laws or an amendment to your state's constitution which forbids such a thing.
To some degree this perspective isn't about separation of church and state, it's about the idea that power was supposed to be highly concentrated more locally, and that the central government was supposed to be relatively weak (10th amendment).
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:25 |
I have another question: I have noticed Libertarians are less suspicious about state's governments than about the big federal government. usually, it's the latter the one that receives all the attack and the one they want removed as far as possible from their lives. Why, in principle, would a federal government be so much worse than the state government? Aren't in the end both two institutions that have influence on people's lives? Aren't both governments after all?
Also, if you had a say on it, suddenly you're granted the power: would you partition America as it once was (if) in multiple separate states? Do you agree with the existence of the whole big things known as the USA?
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:26 |
Finnforest wrote:
Can one be liberal and libertarian? I thought the two were generally at odds. Or are you just saying on some issue you swing one way, and on other issues you swing the other?
Just curious. |
Using the malformed current definitions, libertarians are "liberal" when it comes to typical social issues.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:27 |
Finnforest wrote:
Can one be liberal and libertarian? I thought the two were generally at odds. Or are you just saying on some issue you swing one way, and on other issues you swing the other?
Just curious. |
As far as I know, libertarians can be individual people just like anybody else. Outside of my libertarian stances on things, I'm more left-leaning than I am right-leaning. I don't agree with my fellow libertarians on everything; far from it. That's all I meant.
Teo has a tendency to generalize when he speaks about libertarians. I'm merely reminding him that we all have our own opinions on things, but our opinion of Palin is most likely the same.
Edited by JLocke - October 20 2010 at 12:31
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:29 |
The T wrote:
I have another question: I have noticed Libertarians are less suspicious about state's governments than about the big federal government. usually, it's the latter the one that receives all the attack and the one they want removed as far as possible from their lives. Why, in principle, would a federal government be so much worse than the state government? Aren't in the end both two institutions that have influence on people's lives? Aren't both governments after all?
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I'm not sure that folks here would be any less aggressive with limiting their state government; but unless you live in that state you won't understand references to particular issues is my guess. Whereas we (for the most part in this thread) all live in the US and can have common reference to engage in a discussion.
Also, I would assume libertarians might agree that the more local the government, the better in that it's easier to control and limit.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:31 |
Padraic wrote:
Finnforest wrote:
Can one be liberal and libertarian? I thought the two were generally at odds. Or are you just saying on some issue you swing one way, and on other issues you swing the other?
Just curious. |
Using the malformed current definitions, libertarians are "liberal" when it comes to typical social issues. |
In general, which is why you have the distinguishing "conservative" tag often in place (i.e., "Conservative Libertarian").
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:31 |
Finnforest wrote:
Can one be liberal and libertarian? I thought the two were generally at odds. Or are you just saying on some issue you swing one way, and on other issues you swing the other?
Just curious. |
From wikipedia, that never-failing source: 
Damn the link is not working, wikipedia seems to be down, but I copy just this from google: soon I'll actually go inside.
Maybe there's not just one kind??
Edited by The T - October 20 2010 at 12:32
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:33 |
Padraic wrote:
Also, I would assume libertarians might agree that the more local the government, the better in that it's easier to control and limit. |
Absolutely. It's the lesser of the two evils by far.
Edited by JLocke - October 20 2010 at 12:35
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:34 |
The T wrote:
I have another question: I have noticed Libertarians are less suspicious about state's governments than about the big federal government. usually, it's the latter the one that receives all the attack and the one they want removed as far as possible from their lives. Why, in principle, would a federal government be so much worse than the state government? Aren't in the end both two institutions that have influence on people's lives? Aren't both governments after all?
Also, if you had a say on it, suddenly you're granted the power: would you partition America as it once was (if) in multiple separate states? Do you agree with the existence of the whole big things known as the USA? |
We arent' less suspicious. That's one thing that separates the Constitutionalist from the libertarian. Libertarians hate all government power, the former tends to want to just limit power and keep it local. In principle the federal government is worse however because it is larger and more powerful and thus more dangerous. That is not to say that State's get a free run. To your second question, I think doing that in one swoop might cause more harm than good.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:39 |
Finnforest wrote:
Can one be liberal and libertarian? I thought the two were generally at odds. Or are you just saying on some issue you swing one way, and on other issues you swing the other?
Just curious. |
There is some overlap and that's the extent of it.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:41 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Finnforest wrote:
Can one be liberal and libertarian? I thought the two were generally at odds. Or are you just saying on some issue you swing one way, and on other issues you swing the other?
Just curious. |
There is some overlap and that's the extent of it.
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Well well, Finn. Looks like everybody understands this stuff except you. 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:43 |
Finnforest wrote:
Can one be liberal and libertarian? I thought the two were generally at odds. Or are you just saying on some issue you swing one way, and on other issues you swing the other?
Just curious. |
Depends on your definition of each. I would differentiate between libertarian leaning and libertarian and say that the two are complete opposites.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:43 |
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Huzzah for NJ and its stricter labor laws!
I'll actually make minimum wage at this job + tips, instead of $5 an hour + tips like in PA
Of course I'd like to not be making minimum wage at all but at the moment better then not working.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:44 |
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Boo minimum wage laws.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:47 |
JJLehto wrote:
Huzzah for NJ and its stricter labor laws!
I'll actually make minimum wage at this job + tips, instead of $5 an hour + tips like in PA
Of course I'd like to not be making minimum wage at all but at the moment better then not working.
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That's odd, how did the position in PA get itself exempted from federal minimum wage laws?
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:47 |
JJLehto wrote:
Huzzah for NJ and its stricter labor laws!
I'll actually make minimum wage at this job + tips, instead of $5 an hour + tips like in PA
Of course I'd like to not be making minimum wage at all but at the moment better then not working.
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Ooh, sorry, the word we were looking for was 'than'. Yes, 'than'.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:48 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Boo minimum wage laws.
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What do you think about work-hours laws? Or about laws forcing employers to give vacation and time off? Or laws forcing employers to pay overtime when for example a workers works in a holiday?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:49 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Boo minimum wage laws.
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Yay slave labor!
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:50 |
The T wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Boo minimum wage laws.
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What do you think about work-hours laws? Or about laws forcing employers to give vacation and time off? Or laws forcing employers to pay overtime when for example a workers works in a holiday? |
I don't like them, don't like it, and don't like it.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:51 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Boo minimum wage laws.
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Yay slave labor!
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Yay allowing government price distortion of the market which leads to unemployment especially in sectors involving low skilled labor which causes the laws to hurt the very class of people they were drafted to help!
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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