King Crimson and James Joyce - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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refugee

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Topic: King Crimson and James Joyce
Posted: October 13 2010 at 09:47

Quite interesting:

http://www.themodernword.com/joyce/music/crimson.html

What do you think? IMO he has some good points.

He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)

Lozlan

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Posted: October 13 2010 at 09:59

God I hope not. I'd hate to have to hate KC. Wink

Virginia Woolf for the win!

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Formentera Lady View Drop Down

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Posted: October 13 2010 at 17:56

I haven't read Ulysses. Should I? Ermm

jammun

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Posted: October 13 2010 at 22:55

Having read Ulysses (long, long ago) and having listened to Islands (much more recently), I think the guy may be on to something. Whether it's a conscious reference (on the part of Fripp/Sinfield) I would not know. In any case, the dude rates a clappy or even two

for even thinking about it.

Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.

moshkito

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Posted: October 15 2010 at 19:16

refugee wrote:

Quite interesting:

http://www.themodernword.com/joyce/music/crimson.html

What do you think? IMO he has some good points.

I don't see a problem with it ... it just shows the literary side and knowledge that many of these people have, which some folks don't like to discuss in a board like this ... it's really difficult to break it down like that and expect some folks to read it.

It's not easy to discuss things like that here.

I've said all along, even in the review that there is a lot of intelligence in this work, but I have not gone so far as to parallel it to any work, mostly because I really got soured on that DSOTM thing with that one silly movie!

But it tells you something that "defies" the description of "progressive" and something that does not fit and is diffciult to word into the definitions ... and one of the main reasons why I don't like many of those definitions since they do not allow room for art and people that are working with art, not just a few notes on a jagged guitar!

There are a lot of others. The German group Novalis, pretty much quoted directly from the writer's books, as one example. But to me, the way that one was done is probably one of the best ones ever done ... since it was original ... and the only thing they borrowed was the story line ... and the rest they blended their work to it, which tells you how good and flexible those musicians were ... to be able to create that so efficiently and so well.

And that is hard to do ... and is one of the reasons why a lot of this stuff used to be called "art rock: wayyyyyy long before it became known as "progressive" music.

Today, there is not enough appreciation for literature and the arts, and you can check this board for it ... and watch some people just troll the thread and add nasty comments! Should tell you what they think of "art" and people who obviously read a lot more than metal prog lyrics and rob zombie!

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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WalterDigsTunes View Drop Down

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Posted: October 15 2010 at 19:28

Some w**ker that paid too much attention in his ninth grade literature class is projecting a slice of fictional hogwash onto an album. Whatever.

KingCrInuYasha View Drop Down

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Posted: October 15 2010 at 20:34

@Walter: I haven't read Ulysses, but I have to agree to some extent. The problem is not trying to find some spiritual link to an album and some other "high art". The problem is that some of these guys just put a connection simply to make an attempt to look smart. I'm familiar with Jon Green's essays, and I find most of his interpretations to be quite silly, at best. For example, he mentions that the guy in "The Court of the Crimson King" had something to do with Frederick II of the Holy Roman Empire. As brilliant as Peter Sinfield's lyrics are, I doubt he was trying to put some overly deep philosophical meaning involving some guy in the 13th Century that nobody but experts in Medieval Europe have heard, let alone cared, about. I could probably make a better case of Andy Warhol and his Factory being the king's court in the song.

He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

jammun

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Posted: October 15 2010 at 22:57

I know nothing about the guy...I still give him some points for even thinking about this stuff.

Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.

BaldFriede View Drop Down

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Posted: October 16 2010 at 04:01

This reminds me of the passage "A sail! A veil awave across the waves" from the Siren chapter of Ulysses.

BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.

moshkito

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Posted: October 18 2010 at 19:45

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Some w**ker that paid too much attention in his ninth grade literature class is projecting a slice of fictional hogwash onto an album. Whatever.

Walter ... I think you need to go read something or other ... like the Kama Sutra ... might teach you some apprecaition for a few other things other than ...

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Lopolik

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Posted: October 19 2010 at 04:06

Ulysses is good, but I prefer his other novel: "portrait of the artist as a young man".
Didn't know about the connexion with Islands.

refugee

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Posted: October 19 2010 at 07:29

^ And I don’t know if there actually is a connection, but I found it interesting anyway.

He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)

moshkito

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Posted: October 19 2010 at 18:37

refugee wrote:

^ And I don’t know if there actually is a connection, but I found it interesting anyway.

What a lot of the listeners here, like Walter, are not giving others credit for, is for being well read, educated and intelligent ... which a lot of "progressive" music in Europe was much more so, than the American versions that tended to be less "literary and aesthetic" but nonetheless just as good.

Europe has a massive arts and letters history ... so why would you not think that some of it would creeep in, unless one of us was not educated enough to have any idea what that means? Like the only book they ever read in their life was Winnie the Pooh ... and then they got to watch Ren and Stimpy ... material that has very little literary content and value ... still nice and fun ... but basically empty ... nothing in its backbone!

And it is quite disappointing to see some folks post like that, even though they are likely to be doing it for fun ... but 10 times later, it is not fun ... it is ... boring!

There are a lot of musicians out there that are very well read and educated. There are a lot of folks here on this board that are also very well read and educated ... but one thing is true ... they don't waste their time writing something like a couple of folks here do ... and if that person thinks he's funny, he really should go try his luck in Vegas in front of an audience ... and we can wish him good luck! Might as well try to get paid for his comedy instead of insulting others with it!

Edited by moshkito - October 19 2010 at 18:41

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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jammun

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Posted: October 19 2010 at 20:02

For me, as said in my earlier response, I find the association if nothing else interesting and worth consideration. I'm thinking, the better lyricists of the era (so for example Keith Reid and yes Pete Sinfield and a few others), were not exactly idiots and may have actually had broader intentions in mind.

Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.

resurrection View Drop Down

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Posted: January 23 2011 at 01:27

refugee wrote:

Quite interesting:

http://www.themodernword.com/joyce/music/crimson.html

What do you think? IMO he has some good points.

What King Crimson did (at least with the first album) was great, but let's not go down that path of trying to give them medals they're not in line for. Their inquisitive nature would lead them into many forms and casual influences, but that doesn't make them become Beethoven or Blake.

zappaholic View Drop Down

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Posted: January 23 2011 at 09:21

I never read Ulysses, but my brother had to read it for a class. His reaction: "James Joyce was the world's first crack baby, wasn't he?"

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken

moshkito

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Posted: January 24 2011 at 18:21

jammun wrote:

For me, as said in my earlier response, I find the association if nothing else interesting and worth consideration. I'm thinking, the better lyricists of the era (so for example Keith Reid and yes Pete Sinfield and a few others), were not exactly idiots and may have actually had broader intentions in mind.

Totally agreed!

But we have to caution against the idea that just because one read James Joyce, that they are smarter than anyone else.

Smart is a relative term anyway, but there is a tendency to think that street music is not good music and there is plenty of street music that shows more musicianship in it and emotion in it than more than half the classical music out there that is trying to get a dollar out of you, where some members in the orchestra are simply going through the motions and couldn't careless about the music! Heck, that is happening right here in Portland as we speak! Considering their situation and lack of funds, I think they need a little James Joyce and rock music to wake up their boredom!

As I said before, I always thought that these folks WERE the "classical music" of our time, done by the folks that were our age ... and I for one, am extremely proud of being associated with the times and places ...

Edited by moshkito - January 24 2011 at 18:30

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

hobocamp

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Posted: January 25 2011 at 08:35

Nothing wrong with his theory and he supports his arguments with excellent examples.

I had read somewhere that the album was indirectly about the breakup of the Beatles though.

Or maybe it was just one song? Anyone else ever heard of this?

Anthony H. View Drop Down

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Posted: January 25 2011 at 09:19

moshkito wrote:

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Some w**ker that paid too much attention in his ninth grade literature class is projecting a slice of fictional hogwash onto an album. Whatever.

Walter ... I think you need to go read something or other ... like the Kama Sutra ... might teach you some apprecaition for a few other things other than ...

Oh snap.

moshkito

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Posted: January 25 2011 at 18:01

Anthony H. wrote:

moshkito wrote:

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Some w**ker that paid too much attention in his ninth grade literature class is projecting a slice of fictional hogwash onto an album. Whatever.

Walter ... I think you need to go read something or other ... like the Kama Sutra ... might teach you some apprecaition for a few other things other than ...

Oh snap.

The only concern I had was that he might find that a book that is centuries old, might not be progressive enough for him! ... that could be scary!

(Sorry to momentarily hijack the thread) ... and no, this comment, has very little to do with JJ and KC ... and is not about Elephant Talk, or Libra's Theme!

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com