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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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The maths error is in how the rebate is calculated, also the rebate isn't really a rebate (refund) but a tax (price) reduction so the 20 Rand wasn't paid back to them so they could apportion it between the 6 (tax) payers (since they don't pay 100 Rand that day), their bar-bill is now 80% of what it was the previous day so what they each pay was 80% of what they paid the previous day - each gets a 20% reduction. There are a few more (lets call them) mistakes in the example that I haven't the time or inclination to detail - if people think this is a fair and reasonable example of any tax system then nothing I say will change anything.
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Maybe it's irrelevant because the point of the analogy isn't calculating an accurate tax return? The illustration isn't damaged at all by the omission of 1 Rand.
Where does the example say it's a rebate? I don't even get what your criticism is. Like I said, people defend the income tax like it's a goddam child. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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As I have said before, and will undoubtedly say again - I'm not defending income tax.
Nothing I have said has been, or could be construed to be, in defence of income tax. In this example someone has gone to great lengths to show income tax as bad by using a bad example that only shows that peoples understanding and perception of income tax is bad, but it hasn't really demonstrated why or how this tax is bad in comparison to other forms of taxation, or bad as a tax in general. Income tax is not good, it is not fair and it is poorly implemented, and illustrating all those bad things isn't difficult. What annoys me about this example is that it has fudged the numbers to make it look bad, when it was already bad in the first place.
The example doesn't say it is a rebate, but when they first try and divvy up the R20 between the six payers they are treating it like one, then when the bar owner suggests they "reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was" it is still treating it like a rebate. It's not and the example didn't actually do what the bar owner suggested anyway (I can explain why, but it's not important - just think about where those saving percentages came from).
So, why do I think this missing Rand is so relevant and why does this illustration annoy me so much? The key is the fifth man - he now pays no "tax" - his 1 Rand payment that now sits safely in his pocket is the missing Rand, so instead of getting a 100% saving as the creator of the illustration implies, he actually should have got a 0% saving - but that wouldn't do would it? - you couldn't have the lowest earning tax payer getting 0% saving while all the others got between 33% and 16% (actually 17% but hey) could you? - no, that would bust the whole analogy apart and everyone would be up-in-arms that the lowest earning tax payer really is being victimised rather than supposedly being victimised. See, I get annoyed because subterfuge and fudging (ie bad economics by way of bad maths) was used to show the system was bad - , when it was bad for the lowest payer and bad for the highest payer without the sleight of hand.
I'm also slightly "disappointed" that the example isn't particularly representative - 40% of the population does not pay zero income tax, even after benefits and handouts and 10% of the population does not pay 59% of the tax revenue - but that's neither here nor there - perhaps it is like that in South Africa.
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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I still don't get your criticism. The analogy hardly falls apart. Why is the missing Rand the fifth man's? It could just as easily be fractional percentages added up from everyone's savings. Who cares if it's not representative? It's analogy. It seems like you're really missing the point.
You're defending the income tax like it's your child. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Epignosis ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
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I think God made a truncation error when he made me. ![]() |
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JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
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Ah, never did get around to reading "Anthem"
Whoops |
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thellama73 ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
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You're wrong.
And you're wrong again. |
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JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
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Even without that article...I knew that was true. 40% do not pay income tax.
I knew that from school...but also a report was released by some gvmt thingy saying that...so it is a known fact. And Rob...if you were an error God must have been trashed when he made me! |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Hmmm. I'm not an American - so that's not my population - however, I'm sure you can find similar stats for where I live.
Ho hum - wrong twice in one post - I've had worse.
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Good now we all can agree beer is far superior to the income tax.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
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Yes Hooray beer! |
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The T ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Which means, if you had to take a percentage of your jar every month and give it to the government, you would be REALLY pissed off... But actually, they're already doing it. I bet that if you didn't have to pay any taxes, all that money would go straight to your liver...
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thellama73 ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
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Yeah, I have no idea about the statistics for the UK, but I do think that beer s awesome.
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manofmystery ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 26 2008 Location: PA, USA Status: Offline Points: 4335 |
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I think they are equally hard to swallow
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![]() Time always wins. |
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Slartibartfast ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Hey did you hear about the one where the fire department stood by and let a family's home burn to the ground because they didn't pay the yearly fee?
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Trademark ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 21 2006 Location: oHIo Status: Offline Points: 1009 |
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No, but I did hear the one where the Fire Department didn't rent the road that the house was on so they weren't allowed in to the fire by road's owner. The punchline is the same though.
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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I did. Good for them. If you don't pay for flood insurance, should the company pay for your damages when your house floods?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Seems like a stupid idea to purchase fire protection from a company which refuses to contract for road usage.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Tell me about it man. My beer is $8 cheaper in NJ. The state government wants me to live past 40 or something.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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