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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 02:33
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ That's appallingly bad maths - R2+R5+R9+R14+R49 = R79 ... they still owe the barkeep R1
 
 
It's also terribly bad economics - I hope whoever dreamt up that "example" isn't involved in the economy of any country or major businesses - or worse still, teaching or advising anyone (since that would proliferate the error even more). And if anyone doesn't understand that, then no explanation will help.

The math error is noted but irrelevant. What is the economics error though?
I don't consider the maths error to be irrelevant - if that was the US tax bill it would be an error of $15billion.
 
The maths error is in how the rebate is calculated, also the rebate isn't really a rebate (refund) but a tax (price) reduction so the 20 Rand wasn't paid back to them so they could apportion it between the 6 (tax) payers (since they don't pay 100 Rand that day), their bar-bill is now 80% of what it was the previous day so what they each pay was 80% of what they paid the previous day - each gets a 20% reduction. There are a few more (lets call them) mistakes in the example that I haven't the time or inclination to detail - if people think this is a fair and reasonable example of any tax system then nothing I say will change anything.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 07:27
Maybe it's irrelevant because the point of the analogy isn't calculating an accurate tax return? The illustration isn't damaged at all by the omission of 1 Rand.

Where does the example say it's a rebate? I don't even get what your criticism is.

Like I said, people defend the income tax like it's a goddam child.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 12:48
As I have said before, and will undoubtedly say again - I'm not defending income tax.
 
Nothing I have said has been, or could be construed to be, in defence of income tax. In this example someone has gone to great lengths to show income tax as bad by using a bad example that only shows that peoples understanding and perception of income tax is bad, but it hasn't really demonstrated why or how this tax is bad in comparison to other forms of taxation, or bad as a tax in general. Income tax is not good, it is not fair and it is poorly implemented, and illustrating all those bad things isn't difficult. What annoys me about this example is that it has fudged the numbers to make it look bad, when it was already bad in the first place.
 
The example doesn't say it is a rebate, but when they first try and divvy up the R20 between the six payers they are treating it like one, then when the bar owner suggests they "reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was" it is still treating it like a rebate. It's not and the example didn't actually do what the bar owner suggested anyway (I can explain why, but it's not important - just think about where those saving percentages came from).
 
So, why do I think this missing Rand is so relevant and why does this illustration annoy me so much? The key is the fifth man - he now pays no "tax" - his 1 Rand payment that now sits safely in his pocket is the missing Rand, so instead of getting a 100% saving as the creator of the illustration implies, he actually should have got a 0% saving - but that wouldn't do would it? - you couldn't have the lowest earning tax payer getting 0% saving while all the others got between 33% and 16% (actually 17% but hey) could you? - no, that would bust the whole analogy apart and everyone would be up-in-arms that the lowest earning tax payer really is being victimised rather than supposedly being victimised. See, I get annoyed because subterfuge and fudging (ie bad economics by way of bad maths) was used to show the system was bad - , when it was bad for the lowest payer and bad for the highest payer without the sleight of hand.
 
I'm also slightly "disappointed" that the example isn't particularly representative - 40% of the population does not pay zero income tax, even after benefits and handouts and 10% of the population does not pay 59% of the tax revenue - but that's neither here nor there - perhaps it is like that in South Africa.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 13:54
I still don't get your criticism. The analogy hardly falls apart. Why is the missing Rand the fifth man's? It could just as easily be fractional percentages added up from everyone's savings. Who cares if it's not representative? It's analogy. It seems like you're really missing the point.

You're defending the income tax like it's your child.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 16:09

LOL It actually doesn't matter - it's just another viral email and I don't think it is a particularily good one regardless of the point it tried to make that I've apparently failed to grasp. I don't like it because it's bad maths - truncation errors are inexcusable as far as I am concerned.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 16:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

truncation errors are inexcusable as far as I am concerned.



I think God made a truncation error when he made me.  Ouch




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 16:22
Ah, never did get around to reading "Anthem"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 18:26
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

40% of the population does not pay zero income tax, even after benefits and handouts

You're wrong.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


10% of the population does not pay 59% of the tax revenue


And you're wrong again.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 19:17
Even without that article...I knew that was true. 40% do not pay income tax.
I knew that from school...but also a report was released by some gvmt thingy saying that...so it is a known fact.

And Rob...if you were an error God must have been trashed when he made me!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 19:34
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

40% of the population does not pay zero income tax, even after benefits and handouts

You're wrong.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


10% of the population does not pay 59% of the tax revenue


And you're wrong again.
Hmmm. I'm not an American - so that's not my population - however, I'm sure you can find similar stats for where I live.
 
Ho hum - wrong twice in one post - I've had worse.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 20:16
Good now we all can agree beer is far superior to the income tax. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 20:17
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Good now we all can agree beer is far superior to the income tax. 


Yes

Hooray beer!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 20:23
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Good now we all can agree beer is far superior to the income tax. 

Which means, if you had to take a percentage of your jar every month and give it to the government, you would be REALLY pissed off... 

But actually, they're already doing it. I bet that if you didn't have to pay any taxes, all that money would go straight to your liver...Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 20:33
Yeah, I have no idea about the statistics for the UK, but I do think that beer s awesome.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2010 at 21:16
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Good now we all can agree beer is far superior to the income tax. 
 
 
I think they are equally hard to swallow


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2010 at 07:17
Hey did you hear about the one where the fire department stood by and let a family's home burn to the ground because they didn't pay the yearly fee?  
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2010 at 07:51
No, but I did hear the one where the Fire Department didn't rent the road that the house was on so they weren't allowed in to the fire by road's owner.  The punchline is the same though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2010 at 08:31
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Hey did you hear about the one where the fire department stood by and let a family's home burn to the ground because they didn't pay the yearly fee?  

I did. Good for them. 

If you don't pay for flood insurance, should the company pay for your damages when your house floods?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2010 at 08:32
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

No, but I did hear the one where the Fire Department didn't rent the road that the house was on so they weren't allowed in to the fire by road's owner.  The punchline is the same though.

Seems like a stupid idea to purchase fire protection from a company which refuses to contract for road usage. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2010 at 08:33
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Good now we all can agree beer is far superior to the income tax. 

Which means, if you had to take a percentage of your jar every month and give it to the government, you would be REALLY pissed off... 

But actually, they're already doing it. I bet that if you didn't have to pay any taxes, all that money would go straight to your liver...Tongue

Tell me about it man. My beer is $8 cheaper in NJ. The state government wants me to live past 40 or something. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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