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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 20:51
^ So its lucky that the Beverly Hillbillies lived in the East or they wouldn't have got to keep the millions for all that oil.  

See, TV always gets it right.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 19:58
I had to look up mineral rights because I wasn't sure of the USA laws on it. In Europe you do not own the mineral rights on land you own - I beleive that in France you only own the land to a depth of 1m. In the USA it varies : "In the eastern United States, most land was acquired early in our nation's history. English and French land grants were "fee simple" grants, and included both the surface and the minerals. In the western United States, minerals were often severed before the surface was deeded to homesteaders. Accordingly, although it is more likely that a purchase of surface property in the eastern United States also includes the underlying minerals, it is far from certain, and cannot be determined without a thorough review of the property's chain of title. " [source]
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 19:43
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

I actually support smalling down things both privately and publically. 



that's an interesting way of putting it - sort of how I feel as well, though neither will happen anytime soon.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 19:23
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I thought this was a hypothetical discussion on replacing all those taxes with a single consumption tax so my first paragraph was perhaps frivolous, but not so the others - if all those taxes are dispensed with and the equivalent sum transfered over to consumption tax then we need to know where that tax will be applied and collected and where it doesn't.
 
This makes every seller a tax collector who pays all the tax he's collected to the tax office and claims back all the tax he's paid in the course of doing business. Of course consumption tax in the form of sales tax and VAT already exist, but not at the percentages that a single national sales tax would require to replace all other taxation.
 
I understand your requirement for this system is to have a smaller government and hence lower overall tax bill, but if the aim is to replace a multitude of different taxes with one single inclusive tax then we need to know where in the whole economy this tax is going to be applied. What I was attempting to get across is that consumption is just as complex as income and will become more complex when it is the only taxation method. 
 
You have already listed food as being tax exempt, if we add to that all the intermediate exemptions I've already discussed, then what of all the other necessities for life: pharmaceuticals (prescription and/or over-the-counter)? female sanitary products? do we tax children's clothing? some book or all books, text books, worship books? are haulage companies and travelling salesmen exempt from consumption tax on fuel? what of prepared food from a restaurant? do we tax pet food but not livestock foodstuffs?
 
Once you transfer the role of tax collector over to the retailer then all the complexity of the system becomes his responsibility, and he will make you pay for that by charging the extra cost of his administration and/or extra accountants needed onto the goods he sells so the price increase is more than simply the value of the tax itself. Of course the same thing can happen with any taxation - it depends on who collects the money and pays it to the revenue service - the ideal would be to have the tax collectors at the far end of the line where they cannot pass on the cost of collection to anyone else - but as income tax collection has demonstrated, once that cash sum is in their hands there is a pain-barrier to overcome in persuading them to give "their" money to the revenue service.
 
At the end of the day it doesn't matter where the tax is collected or how big the government is - if it exists at all and requires z million dollars funding then that money will be collected in total - what you are discussing is how that is apportioned through the population. If someone pays less tax for whatever reason or circumstance then someone else will pay more as a direct consequence because the net yield has to remain at z millions.
 
If the rich pay more income tax by earning more or they pay more consumption tax by consuming more in principle it shouldn't make any difference, but the reality is that it will - TheLlama has already illustrated the deadweight loss associated with income-tax (when tax is removed wages will drop) - the same applies to consumption tax - once the price of goods increases through sales-tax then the demand will decrease and it will decrease more on expensive (luxury) items (where the fixed percentage tax just means paying more dollars per item - the buying public does not think in percentages it thinks in dollars and cents). Even if there is more disposable income as a result of income tax reducing to zero, there is a psychological effect of prices increasing as a result of sales tax to overcome regardless of how much money you have in the bank. If people don't like paying income tax, then they don't like paying any tax and will not be fooled by the ruse that consumption tax is fairer, because no tax is fair (in their estimation).
 
What you are doing is shuffling the effects of taxation around the population looking for the largest sector that will either complain the least or have the least influence on the overall economy.
 
Where consumption tax wins is that it is difficult for the ordinary citizen to avoid it and practically impossible to evade it. Where it loses is that it puts the burden of tax collection on the small businesses (ie retailers) who can least afford it and who are least skilled at managing it. To make tax collection simpler it should be moved up the supply chain, not down it - it is easier and more efficient to collect larges sums of cash from a small number of suppliers than it is to collect small sums from a large number. This could overcome the psychological tax pain-barrier effect - the price of final goods may increase by exactly the same percentage, but if it not regarded as a direct taxation then people will be less reluctant to pay it.
 


Yes, smaller government means less tax.

Now, just as complex and will become more complicated?  No way.  Dean, have you seen our federal tax code?  Apparently not. 
Then educate me, show me just how complicated your federal tax code is. As a non-American it's not "apparently", it's "evidently", but that does not negate the fact that I can have an opinion based on what I do understand of the taxation system I do have knowledge of, which is not that different from the USA system. (And judging by some of the replies and posts in this thread and other threads I do appear to have a better understanding and knowledge of tax in general than a some of the people who post here).
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

A consumption tax is 1) not an invasion of privacy, 2) eliminates deductions completely, and 3) is nearly impossible to avoid.  It means almost no paperwork (relative to what we have now) and thus fewer agents needed to manage government revenue, meaning a decrease in government costs.
1) I don't get the privacy of earnings malarky, and I'm not going to fret over it. Pass.
 
2) Not sure what you mean by eliminating deductions, I sense it's not something to go to war over. Pass.
 
3) Tax avoidance is legal - tax evasion is the illegal one. But I already listed that as plus for consumption tax, so I'll pass on that one.
 
Consumption tax means zero paperwork for you, but a whole mountain for someone else. I don't quite see how it results in fewer agents, but if your answer is we already have consumption taxes then I'll pass on that too.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


You are trying to muddy things up.  These are mere details that can be worked out.  I'm not sitting here trying to figure every detail when my system probably won't come to pass anyway.  All I ask is how my general idea (which others have shared) is inferior to what we have now.  And if this idea is better, why don't we have it?

I'm not trying to muddy it up - it will do that all by itself. They are not mere details, these are the details that are the difference between success and failure - and if you don't figure those out at the beginning you'll complicate the system even further by trying to figure them out as you go along - that's partly why the whole tax system is complicated now, because it was done piecemeal fixing little problems here and there, giving little tax breaks and incentives here and there and vacialting between one political/ecomonic philosophy and another on a 4 year cycle for the past 100+ years.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


As for what else you are saying...we already have a consumption tax.  Companies already have to do this.  Eliminating income tax will do them a service. Ridding ourselves of the ultra-complicated income and corporation tax will save companies a fortune.

How does consumption tax eliminate corporation tax? How does a low consuming high earning service industry get taxed the same as high consuming maunfacturing industry earning the same amount? If there is no solution to that then manufacturing will decrease to zero in the USA.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Yes, it matters how big our government is.  Did you not pay attention to anything I had to say about how our government functions? 
Sorry, must have dozed off during that bit, could you perhaps open a window or something...
 
...or maybe you could simply read - big government stealing 1trillion bucks or small government stealing 1billion bucks - it doesn't matter how big or small they are, how much they "steal" or how they "thieve" it - at the end of the fiscal year they are going to have their money. If it is a small government they will get their billion dollars through income tax or through consumption tax. If consumption tax doesn't net the same number of dollars as income tax did then they will raise the rate until it does. At the end of the day 113 million households will pay out 1 billion dollars in tax regardless of how it is paid.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

The feds spend more than they bring in.  We don't have a balanced budget.  That means your 6th paragraph is nonsense. 

I think your 21st word is nonsense.
 
Changing the tax system will not make the government any more efficient and it will not decrease or fix the budget deficit or the national debt.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Your seventh paragraph is the worst.  Demand hasn't decreased due to higher prices.  Our government has increased the cost of almost everything through minimum wage increases.  People still buy.  People will still buy.  We've proven that too.  Were a consumption tax in place in lieu of every other tax, then businesses can grow because ultimately (if the business chooses to operate in this way), the end user will be paying all the taxes.  But that's no different than how it already is...because...*

Your fifth and sixth words are the worst.
 
I love that minimum wage one. Heard it once, liked the sound of it, chuckled at it ever since. It was specious then it's specious now. The number of people on minimum wage is hard to ascertain to any degree of accuracy since the lower level incomes also include part-time workers, itinerant workers, people on welfare, pensions, etc. What we can say is that the overall figure for the low-paid sector is something like 14 million households earning a total of 1.4% of all earnings for the USA. Most of those will not be on minimum wage and those that are will be working in the food service sector, not in manufacturing and supply. Even if we generously assume that all those people are on minimum wage and they all contribute to the manufacture of widgets then a 10% hike in their pay is going to affect the overall wage bill by 0.14%, which will affect the retail price of widgets by whatever percentage of the retail price their wage contributes to multiplied by the percentage increase in their wage. Let's be doubly generous and assume that it is 50%, so the increase in retail price is now (0.14x0.5=)  0.07% - or 7¢ on $100. TheLlama has already drawn a nice supply and demand graph for that - a 0.07% increase in price may result in a 0.07% decrease in demand if the two slopes were unity, but to be honest 0.07% gets lost in the noise of normal retail demand fluctuations so we can say the effect is negligible. Now, all those assumptions were generous ones - the minimum wage does not affect manufacturing in the USA or Europe anything like as "dramatically" as the 0.07% of this illustration, so for all intents and purposes changing minimum wage doesn't affect demand because it doesn't affect retail pricing anything like as much as people would like you to believe. However, the supply and demand curves are real and they do work, just not for infinitesimally small increments. It has already been shown that the real curves are really curves and not straight lines - what this means is that for small changes they can be treated as linear, but for large changes, which is what a sudden imposition of consumption tax would be, then the effect is disproportionately larger. For example if we pretend that the curve is a square law, then a less than 1% change will result in a less than 1% decrease in demand, a 2% change will result in a 4% decrease in demand and a 8% change results in a 64% drop in demand. Now I don't know what the curve is - it probably isn't a square law, it's probably far more complex than that, (as Brian said: "Draw me up a parabolic curve or go away, dammit!" LOL), but whatever it is it won't be linear and it won't be unity - increase sales tax from 8% to 18% and demand will decrease disproportionately more.
 
...someone said something about the rich buying yachts ... firstly "the rich" are not people earning between $100K and $250K - a luxury yacht starts at around $100K so you are looking at the real rich people who earn millions - yup they'll still buy yachts, but perhaps only one every 2 years instead of one every year. Instantly the fair system is netting 50% less tax because of a 10% increase in yacht prices. Same for the middle earners - they'll still buy flat screen TVs and Lexus's, just not quite as frequently so the demand is the same, but the frequency has dropped and so the total tax revenue has dropped..
 
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Your last paragraph fails because...*we already have consumption taxes here. 

You can keep saying we already have consumption taxes here until you are blue in the face, I'll still keep posting because you have a form of consumption tax that is limited scope and application - once it is expanded to a system that replaces all other taxes then it not the same tax as the state sales taxes you are refering to, it will become just as complex as income tax is now.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



We already have federal and state income tax, consumption tax, property tax, estate tax, and a host of other taxes.  Nothing you have said troubles my position, because we have all these things.  A simple consumption tax will be far simpler and far superior.

No one has shown why a consumption tax is a poor alternative to what we already have.  Any takers?
In principle income tax is simple - simpler even than consumption tax - what complicates income tax is not the collection, but the exemptions and exceptions and the varying rates and thresholds (and of course all the tax accountants and economists who earn their living unravelling the complications for you - it is in their interest that the system doesn't become simpler Wink). If you replace income tax with consumption tax all those complications will creep back into the system.
 
I don't have to show why consumption tax is a poor alternative, nor do I have to show that it won't be a better alternative. I don't even need to show that it is regressive or will benefit the rich more than the poor. If it was a good system someone somewhere would have it by now. It's just an alternative, with all the hang-ups and limitations of any other taxation and it will be created, ratified, administered and governed by the same people who haven't managed to get any tax system right yet and will be paid for by people who don't like paying tax whatever the system is.
 


Edited by Dean - September 29 2010 at 19:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 16:47
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

 
 
a)
That's why society exists. Government doesn't need to be a part of it.
 
Currently, private enterprise has not proven that it is very good at serving the needs of society, even when those needs can be piggybacked on profit. (That's the theory as I always understood it, you provide a service or good for the needs of society and you get to profit from that.) We now live in a society where providing a service to society is not only not a necessary part of the bargain but is actively discouraged in many sectors of business. So when you say "That's why society exists," I'm inclined to say that capitalism is failing...society does not exist for the purpose of a few hoarding the gold.
 
Do you have any examples? I was not aware of this occuring.
 
Health Care - Both private and public options waste more than they use, just in different ways. Absolutely no evidence privately administered health care is any better for society as a whole.
 
I disagree.
 
 
b)
 
I didn't assume that they have intentions to harm me. I said that they legally can. Read my post. The government is not us. It is not me. I don't support the government. They don't act on my behalf.
 
That's a totally viable opinion. But it's just a personal opinion.
 
It's fact. Me not supporting the government is fact. It not acting on my behalf is fact.
 
Why does none of that rhetoric you just dropped apply to the companies you portray as preying on the common man?
 
It does - I feel about corporations in a similar way you feel about the government. It's probably the same base instinct - mistrust of power structures we respectively don't trust and dislike. For that reason, I don't necessarily trust legally sanctioned power figures across the board either. It's just that in private enterprise, the system is designed for those in power to serve themselves and hoard wealth. In a public power system (government) at least the intention is to serve the many. Since power corrupts absolutely, we end up with much of the same result either way. I actually support smalling down things both privately and publically. Do I have a viable way of what that would look like? Not yet, haven't thought about it enough.
 
Fair enough. I obviously disagree completely, but I would be interested in hearing of your system should you think of it.
 
 
 
c)
 
That's fine, but it still has a monopoly on legal force. You can't deny that. I was just explaining why one reason I place the government up to "higher scrutiny."
 
I do deny. We disagree.
 
I deny your denialWink

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 16:38
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

 
 
a)
That's why society exists. Government doesn't need to be a part of it.
 
Currently, private enterprise has not proven that it is very good at serving the needs of society, even when those needs can be piggybacked on profit. (That's the theory as I always understood it, you provide a service or good for the needs of society and you get to profit from that.) We now live in a society where providing a service to society is not only not a necessary part of the bargain but is actively discouraged in many sectors of business. So when you say "That's why society exists," I'm inclined to say that capitalism is failing...society does not exist for the purpose of a few hoarding the gold.
 
Do you have any examples? I was not aware of this occuring.
 
Health Care - Both private and public options waste more than they use, just in different ways. Absolutely no evidence privately administered health care is any better for society as a whole.
 
 
b)
 
I didn't assume that they have intentions to harm me. I said that they legally can. Read my post. The government is not us. It is not me. I don't support the government. They don't act on my behalf.
 
That's a totally viable opinion. But it's just a personal opinion.
 
Why does none of that rhetoric you just dropped apply to the companies you portray as preying on the common man?
 
It does - I feel about corporations in a similar way you feel about the government. It's probably the same base instinct - mistrust of power structures we respectively don't trust and dislike. For that reason, I don't necessarily trust legally sanctioned power figures across the board either. It's just that in private enterprise, the system is designed for those in power to serve themselves and hoard wealth. In a public power system (government) at least the intention is to serve the many. Since power corrupts absolutely, we end up with much of the same result either way. I actually support smalling down things both privately and publically. Do I have a viable way of what that would look like? Not yet, haven't thought about it enough.
 
 
 
c)
 
That's fine, but it still has a monopoly on legal force. You can't deny that. I was just explaining why one reason I place the government up to "higher scrutiny."
 
I do deny. We disagree.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 16:18
2) I can't be bothered to repeat myself then. I'll alert my employer that I have been conned with regards to my static pay.
 
3) It was an opinion. There's nothing to argue really. I think you would be stupid not to donate to a police force. I don't think many people would argue the contrary.
 
I don't understand the position that will and do give money to things which do not benefit them at all, or only benefit them marginally, and are quite trivial, but that those same people wouldn't give money one of the most fundamentally important institutions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 16:04
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
1)  Let me know Wink
2) Well we have elections and if a party decided to put the rent up on my road ro an unaffordable rate I along with a few other people would get rid.
 
My private landlord however, would just keep putting the rent up until I moved out I know of nothing that has a fixed rate and stays that way.
 
3)  Ther are plenty of people who don't think the police is important to them a vertain criminal fraternity for a few.  Many people don't trust the police as they are let alone a private policia.  If it's voluntary then many people will stop paying this before well any otherr thing they seee as moore important (Charity, bills, food, clothes, etc) . 
 
I will get a second class policing because mr policeman will know who pays his wages (Mr Criminal businessman)
 
2) My pay is a fixed rate. I signed a contract. I provide a service, and I am payed a fixed rate every 2 weeks. Plently of things operate like that.
 
I think you're oversimplifying governmental change. Why isn't the government identical to your whim if it's that easy?
 
3) Then people will suffer the consequences. Sucks?
 
I think you're wrong. Why would they keep paying into charities over a service which actually helps them?
 
 
2) You should resign thenLOL I have no bills that do not go up.  If I have one road and one owner of that road then the owner can charge what they like.
 
I oversimplify gov change yes.  But it still stands if the gov acted like that private landlord ^ we would get rid.  and it would be difficult but easier than the private landlord.
 
3)  End of conversation then?
 
I think I am right.  In fact I know I am right because that's what I would do.
 
By the way charities help us too. 
 
2) Does your pay go up? I'm under the impression that most people have a rate of pay which remains static for some period of time. If you are getting a raise every week, and I am being duped, please let me know.
 
For one the road owner would have no reason to practice predatory pricing. ALso, you would be stupid not to assure some rate on the road before you bought the property. If he's doing so other firms could simply provide the road. Actually, can you just go back through this thread where I had the same argument?
 
3) I think you are stupid then.
 
Charities help you? When you donate to the food bank, you get to eat it? When you donate to Obama's presidential campaign, there's a larger benefit to you than your investment in a police force?
 
2) Yes
 
Can't be bothered
 
3: Well argued
 
Yes.  No.  No I have no reason to donate to Obama's campaign.  (Some might think yes though).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 15:52
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

 
 
a)
That's why society exists. Government doesn't need to be a part of it.
 
Currently, private enterprise has not proven that it is very good at serving the needs of society, even when those needs can be piggybacked on profit. (That's the theory as I always understood it, you provide a service or good for the needs of society and you get to profit from that.) We now live in a society where providing a service to society is not only not a necessary part of the bargain but is actively discouraged in many sectors of business. So when you say "That's why society exists," I'm inclined to say that capitalism is failing...society does not exist for the purpose of a few hoarding the gold.
 
Do you have any examples? I was not aware of this occuring.
 
 
b)
The government can not.
 
The government can is is held financially responible all the time.
 
No it's not. I can't sue them for steal my money. They passed a law that said they could. They can assassinate me. My family would not be able to bring charges. The executive branch has decided it's within their power.
 
This line of thinking assumes that the government is "other" and that its intentions are to harm you the citizen. Again legally I am part of the government. The government is us. As a group of people, it's just as flawed as any group of people. Your self-regulation points are well taken but again, are not exclusive to the elected government.
 
I didn't assume that they have intentions to harm me. I said that they legally can. Read my post. The government is not us. It is not me. I don't support the government. They don't act on my behalf.
 
Why does none of that rhetoric you just dropped apply to the companies you portray as preying on the common man?
 
c)
I don't see what you can possible argue. It's fact.
 
What is a fact? By law, I am a representative of the federal government. You cannot sue me for malpractice, only the fed for providing the care. Doctors do get sued and lose under this system.
 
What? It's a fact that the government has a monopoly on legal use of force.
 
We're dancing in circles now. We've already stated our opinions on this particular point. While I do recognize that this point matters, I don't think it matters enough to justify the level of mistrust of the government you espouse. But we know we disagree on this one.
 
That's fine, but it still has a monopoly on legal force. You can't deny that. I was just explaining why one reason I place the government up to "higher scrutiny."

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 15:49
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
1)  Let me know Wink
2) Well we have elections and if a party decided to put the rent up on my road ro an unaffordable rate I along with a few other people would get rid.
 
My private landlord however, would just keep putting the rent up until I moved out I know of nothing that has a fixed rate and stays that way.
 
3)  Ther are plenty of people who don't think the police is important to them a vertain criminal fraternity for a few.  Many people don't trust the police as they are let alone a private policia.  If it's voluntary then many people will stop paying this before well any otherr thing they seee as moore important (Charity, bills, food, clothes, etc) . 
 
I will get a second class policing because mr policeman will know who pays his wages (Mr Criminal businessman)
 
2) My pay is a fixed rate. I signed a contract. I provide a service, and I am payed a fixed rate every 2 weeks. Plently of things operate like that.
 
I think you're oversimplifying governmental change. Why isn't the government identical to your whim if it's that easy?
 
3) Then people will suffer the consequences. Sucks?
 
I think you're wrong. Why would they keep paying into charities over a service which actually helps them?
 
 
2) You should resign thenLOL I have no bills that do not go up.  If I have one road and one owner of that road then the owner can charge what they like.
 
I oversimplify gov change yes.  But it still stands if the gov acted like that private landlord ^ we would get rid.  and it would be difficult but easier than the private landlord.
 
3)  End of conversation then?
 
I think I am right.  In fact I know I am right because that's what I would do.
 
By the way charities help us too. 
 
2) Does your pay go up? I'm under the impression that most people have a rate of pay which remains static for some period of time. If you are getting a raise every week, and I am being duped, please let me know.
 
For one the road owner would have no reason to practice predatory pricing. ALso, you would be stupid not to assure some rate on the road before you bought the property. If he's doing so other firms could simply provide the road. Actually, can you just go back through this thread where I had the same argument?
 
3) I think you are stupid then.
 
Charities help you? When you donate to the food bank, you get to eat it? When you donate to Obama's presidential campaign, there's a larger benefit to you than your investment in a police force?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 15:37
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
1)  Let me know Wink
2) Well we have elections and if a party decided to put the rent up on my road ro an unaffordable rate I along with a few other people would get rid.
 
My private landlord however, would just keep putting the rent up until I moved out I know of nothing that has a fixed rate and stays that way.
 
3)  Ther are plenty of people who don't think the police is important to them a vertain criminal fraternity for a few.  Many people don't trust the police as they are let alone a private policia.  If it's voluntary then many people will stop paying this before well any otherr thing they seee as moore important (Charity, bills, food, clothes, etc) . 
 
I will get a second class policing because mr policeman will know who pays his wages (Mr Criminal businessman)
 
2) My pay is a fixed rate. I signed a contract. I provide a service, and I am payed a fixed rate every 2 weeks. Plently of things operate like that.
 
I think you're oversimplifying governmental change. Why isn't the government identical to your whim if it's that easy?
 
3) Then people will suffer the consequences. Sucks?
 
I think you're wrong. Why would they keep paying into charities over a service which actually helps them?
 
 
2) You should resign thenLOL I have no bills that do not go up.  If I have one road and one owner of that road then the owner can charge what they like.
 
I oversimplify gov change yes.  But it still stands if the gov acted like that private landlord ^ we would get rid.  and it would be difficult but easier than the private landlord.
 
3)  End of conversation then?
 
I think I am right.  In fact I know I am right because that's what I would do.
 
By the way charities help us too. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 15:28
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
1)  Let me know Wink
2) Well we have elections and if a party decided to put the rent up on my road ro an unaffordable rate I along with a few other people would get rid.
 
My private landlord however, would just keep putting the rent up until I moved out I know of nothing that has a fixed rate and stays that way.
 
3)  Ther are plenty of people who don't think the police is important to them a vertain criminal fraternity for a few.  Many people don't trust the police as they are let alone a private policia.  If it's voluntary then many people will stop paying this before well any otherr thing they seee as moore important (Charity, bills, food, clothes, etc) . 
 
I will get a second class policing because mr policeman will know who pays his wages (Mr Criminal businessman)
 
2) My pay is a fixed rate. I signed a contract. I provide a service, and I am payed a fixed rate every 2 weeks. Plently of things operate like that.
 
I think you're oversimplifying governmental change. Why isn't the government identical to your whim if it's that easy?
 
3) Then people will suffer the consequences. Sucks?
 
I think you're wrong. Why would they keep paying into charities over a service which actually helps them?
 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 15:19
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

 
 
a)
That's why society exists. Government doesn't need to be a part of it.
 
Currently, private enterprise has not proven that it is very good at serving the needs of society, even when those needs can be piggybacked on profit. (That's the theory as I always understood it, you provide a service or good for the needs of society and you get to profit from that.) We now live in a society where providing a service to society is not only not a necessary part of the bargain but is actively discouraged in many sectors of business. So when you say "That's why society exists," I'm inclined to say that capitalism is failing...society does not exist for the purpose of a few hoarding the gold.
 
 
b)
The government can not.
 
The government can is is held financially responible all the time.
 
No it's not. I can't sue them for steal my money. They passed a law that said they could. They can assassinate me. My family would not be able to bring charges. The executive branch has decided it's within their power.
 
This line of thinking assumes that the government is "other" and that its intentions are to harm you the citizen. Again legally I am part of the government. The government is us. As a group of people, it's just as flawed as any group of people. Your self-regulation points are well taken but again, are not exclusive to the elected government.
 
c)
I don't see what you can possible argue. It's fact.
 
What is a fact? By law, I am a representative of the federal government. You cannot sue me for malpractice, only the fed for providing the care. Doctors do get sued and lose under this system.
 
What? It's a fact that the government has a monopoly on legal use of force.
 
We're dancing in circles now. We've already stated our opinions on this particular point. While I do recognize that this point matters, I don't think it matters enough to justify the level of mistrust of the government you espouse. But we know we disagree on this one.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 15:00
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

What natural resources?

If there's oil on land I've purchased than I own them.
 
In general though I would say nobody owns them. I take a Lockian view on that.

Just a question: how did you get to own the land? You purchased it... how did the seller get to acquire it? And if we go further back, how did the first owner acquire it? How has this been here in the US? 
 
Originally posted by John Locke John Locke wrote:

]Though the earth and all inferior creatures be common to all men, yet every man has a "property" in his own "person." This nobody has any right to but himself. The "labour" of his body and the "work" of his hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever, then, he removes out of the state that Nature hath provided and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with it, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property.
 
So you don't own the land?  But if you dig it up the oil is yours?  Or you own the land and the oil?
 
By the way you said the roads would be private,  so the road outside my house would be owned by X and X then can charge me for using it?
 
And the Police would be paid for by private donations?  You think that would happen?
 
If you own land containing resources, then they are yours.
 
If there exists land and resources owned by nobody, then the homesteading principle as quoted above applied.
 
Yes, the road outside your house would be owned by X and X would charge you for using it. Much like now the government owns the road and charges you $.18 per gallon of gas federally and on average $.272 per gallon on the state level.
 
Yes I think that would happen. People donate to political campaigns, and telefons, and food banks, none of which are nearly as important to them as a police force.
 
If you have water flowing across your land and someone blocks the stream on their land Have they stolen my water?
 
So X can charge what he likes because I can't change suppliers or change roads?  (I can change the government with a little help)
 
I don't think everyone would donate towards a private police force.  And chances are if everyone did I would get a 2nd class quality of policing compared to say Wooki or whatever her name isLOL
 
 
 
1) Good question. Tricky one. I'm going to say yes. Have to think about exactly why though.
 
2) A little help? Please tell me your secret. From what I understand, changing the government is very difficult and actually never really happens.
 
Yes he can charge what he likes. For a residential home, it would be silly of you to purchase the home without also signing a contract with the roadowner assuring a certain fixed rate. You can change suppliers and roads. I'm not sure why you can't.
 
3) Why do you think that?
 
1)  Let me know Wink
2) Well we have elections and if a party decided to put the rent up on my road ro an unaffordable rate I along with a few other people would get rid.
 
My private landlord however, would just keep putting the rent up until I moved out I know of nothing that has a fixed rate and stays that way.
 
3)  Ther are plenty of people who don't think the police is important to them a vertain criminal fraternity for a few.  Many people don't trust the police as they are let alone a private policia.  If it's voluntary then many people will stop paying this before well any otherr thing they seee as moore important (Charity, bills, food, clothes, etc) . 
 
I will get a second class policing because mr policeman will know who pays his wages (Mr Criminal businessman)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 14:59
I am still against it, but my case against it is "weaker" because I have to talk more about when one may properly expell someone.
 
This is to be expect. It's intuitively a greyer area.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 14:52
Maybe you mentioned this already, but I guess you are not against abortion after rape? Since there is no "de facto invitation" I assume...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 14:46
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

What natural resources?

If there's oil on land I've purchased than I own them.
 
In general though I would say nobody owns them. I take a Lockian view on that.

Just a question: how did you get to own the land? You purchased it... how did the seller get to acquire it? And if we go further back, how did the first owner acquire it? How has this been here in the US? 
 
Originally posted by John Locke John Locke wrote:

]Though the earth and all inferior creatures be common to all men, yet every man has a "property" in his own "person." This nobody has any right to but himself. The "labour" of his body and the "work" of his hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever, then, he removes out of the state that Nature hath provided and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with it, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property.
 
So you don't own the land?  But if you dig it up the oil is yours?  Or you own the land and the oil?
 
By the way you said the roads would be private,  so the road outside my house would be owned by X and X then can charge me for using it?
 
And the Police would be paid for by private donations?  You think that would happen?
 
If you own land containing resources, then they are yours.
 
If there exists land and resources owned by nobody, then the homesteading principle as quoted above applied.
 
Yes, the road outside your house would be owned by X and X would charge you for using it. Much like now the government owns the road and charges you $.18 per gallon of gas federally and on average $.272 per gallon on the state level.
 
Yes I think that would happen. People donate to political campaigns, and telefons, and food banks, none of which are nearly as important to them as a police force.
 
If you have water flowing across your land and someone blocks the stream on their land Have they stolen my water?
 
So X can charge what he likes because I can't change suppliers or change roads?  (I can change the government with a little help)
 
I don't think everyone would donate towards a private police force.  And chances are if everyone did I would get a 2nd class quality of policing compared to say Wooki or whatever her name isLOL
 
 
 
1) Good question. Tricky one. I'm going to say yes. Have to think about exactly why though.
 
2) A little help? Please tell me your secret. From what I understand, changing the government is very difficult and actually never really happens.
 
Yes he can charge what he likes. For a residential home, it would be silly of you to purchase the home without also signing a contract with the roadowner assuring a certain fixed rate. You can change suppliers and roads. I'm not sure why you can't.
 
3) Why do you think that?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 14:40
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

What natural resources?

If there's oil on land I've purchased than I own them.
 
In general though I would say nobody owns them. I take a Lockian view on that.

Just a question: how did you get to own the land? You purchased it... how did the seller get to acquire it? And if we go further back, how did the first owner acquire it? How has this been here in the US? 
 
Originally posted by John Locke John Locke wrote:

]Though the earth and all inferior creatures be common to all men, yet every man has a "property" in his own "person." This nobody has any right to but himself. The "labour" of his body and the "work" of his hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever, then, he removes out of the state that Nature hath provided and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with it, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property.
 
So you don't own the land?  But if you dig it up the oil is yours?  Or you own the land and the oil?
 
By the way you said the roads would be private,  so the road outside my house would be owned by X and X then can charge me for using it?
 
And the Police would be paid for by private donations?  You think that would happen?
 
If you own land containing resources, then they are yours.
 
If there exists land and resources owned by nobody, then the homesteading principle as quoted above applied.
 
Yes, the road outside your house would be owned by X and X would charge you for using it. Much like now the government owns the road and charges you $.18 per gallon of gas federally and on average $.272 per gallon on the state level.
 
Yes I think that would happen. People donate to political campaigns, and telefons, and food banks, none of which are nearly as important to them as a police force.
 
If you have water flowing across your land and someone blocks the stream on their land Have they stolen my water?
 
So X can charge what he likes because I can't change suppliers or change roads?  (I can change the government with a little help)
 
I don't think everyone would donate towards a private police force.  And chances are if everyone did I would get a 2nd class quality of policing compared to say Wooki or whatever her name isLOL
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 14:35
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

What? I have a family. We grow food on our land. That's not restricting your freedom. We're producing the food. It would not have otherwise been there.
 
It comes down to ideas about interdependence. I think this is a fact of life, and needs to be recognised. Not in some happy hippy dippy but simply realizing that independence is never complete. Then we get into arguing degrees again and that's useless unless we're actually hashing out a solution. 
 
I don't even know how we've gotten to this point.
 
I think it comes down to you seem to think you're able to do anything there are no consequences for, while I hold that some things are wrong regardless of consequences.
 
Well I have my personal beliefs about morality that are probably pretty conservative on the whole. Where I differ is what I think I get to say about other's actions. The common ground we all have is basically the law of the jungle. Eat or be eaten. That's why I use it as the basis and build up from there. That doesn't change across time or culture.
 
I don't know what you mean by this. How is that the common law? How do you build up from that?
 
1) Look it up. I'm no expert on the Anarcho-Conception.
2) Roads would be private. All public works would be made private excluding the police and courts. Their money would come from voluntary donation.
 
It seems impractical but having never seen it in action I guess that's just an opinion.
 
Many less important things rely on donations and function. As to a private legal system, I will study it one day, but I haven't had time yet. It does seem a little farfetched from some cursory thought.
  
That's true. But since nearly every function of government can be done more efficiently by private firms, then it follows that we don't need government.
 
Well that's a debatable point, (though probably correct over 50% of the time.) Efficiency isn't the only measuring stick and private firms have their own problems in other areas. (Getting necessary but less profitable things done. It's not their fault, they're just not designed to do things that don't generate profit.)
 
That's why society exists. Government doesn't need to be a part of it.
 
There are laws against theft and aggression. No private firm can break them. You can be prosecuted for doing so.
 
How is a private firm prosecuted other than being held financially responsible?
 
It's not. Since it's not a person, it can't do anything that would justify a non-civil prosecution and there would be nobody to prosectue. If circumstances do occur, then someone in the company has committed the illegal acts and can be tried.
 
The government can not.
 
The government can is is held financially responible all the time.
 
No it's not. I can't sue them for steal my money. They passed a law that said they could. They can assassinate me. My family would not be able to bring charges. The executive branch has decided it's within their power.
 
You can take the government to court, but it writes the laws and allows itself power of aggression.
 
I'm not sure what the qualifier means, or how it applies
 
Sorry?
 
I don't see what you can possible argue. It's fact.
 
What is a fact? By law, I am a representative of the federal government. You cannot sue me for malpractice, only the fed for providing the care. Doctors do get sued and lose under this system.
 
What? It's a fact that the government has a monopoly on legal use of force.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2010 at 14:29
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

What natural resources?

If there's oil on land I've purchased than I own them.
 
In general though I would say nobody owns them. I take a Lockian view on that.

Just a question: how did you get to own the land? You purchased it... how did the seller get to acquire it? And if we go further back, how did the first owner acquire it? How has this been here in the US? 
 
Originally posted by John Locke John Locke wrote:

]Though the earth and all inferior creatures be common to all men, yet every man has a "property" in his own "person." This nobody has any right to but himself. The "labour" of his body and the "work" of his hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever, then, he removes out of the state that Nature hath provided and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with it, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property.

Ds most lands here get acquired through the "labour" of his body and the work of his hands? Was it like this in the early days of this country? 
 
Much land was bought, but yes much of the land was also free to take as long as you cultivated it.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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