UK Politics

Many of my student friends voted Lib-Dem because they thought they had more left-wing and dare I saw "progressive" views.  Many of these people are now fed-up that they got betrayed.  They were never going to vote Tory and were genuinely disillusioned with New Labour (sic.).

I am in favour of full PR but we're only able to vote for AV.  Therefore I'll likely vote against it.  Especially as the Lib Dem's are in bed with the Tories.  I don't want to give them even a chance of getting in out-right now.  They're proving why they're a small party.

Having said that, I do like Ming Campbell more than most Lib-Dems.  There's also one Lib-Dem guy at the moment (whose name I forget) who is being a rebel and generally being outspoken.  It'll be interesting to see if he defects over to Labour.

And of course, it'll be interesting see which Millband wins.  Hopefully it won't be David.  Not that I especially like Ed.  Actually, I don't really like any of them.  Diane Abbott is the closest to my views but she's not Jon Cruddas.

TGM: Orb wrote: Um, the Lib Dems are such a small party because the electoral system is rigged in the favour of the two main parties. AV is probably at the very least an improvement on the FPTP system we have at the moment. I can say with sad confidence that if this gets defeated, it'll be taken as a rejection of electoral reform and not merely a rejection of AV. This isn't an opportunity that's going to come again anytime soon (it took the once-in-forever event of a hung parliament under the FPTP system to get it in the first place). Anyway, just saying I'd really consider voting for AV if you support any variety of electoral reform and this is really more important than party loyalty or anything else. (though, for the record, I suspect it'll hurt the Tories rather more than either of the other parties). --- And it sickens me to see the hypocritical, shameless turds in the Labour opposition attempting to undercut the AV referendum that they were proposing back when they looked like they were going to lose power. Possibly the worst drivelling party politics of recent years.

This.

Finnforest wrote: Dean wrote: UK parties are left when compared to the two US parties, though obviously not as left as David, Steve and myself would be happy with. Greens in this country are left-ish, but have some weird and incompatible ideas on science, technology and manufacturing that makes them unattractive to most voters. Oooh, please expand on this.  As a former US Green, what is it about the UK Greens that makes you say that.  I'm curious why the party I know from here is not wildly more popular in Europe, they seem to embody the progressive values I hear are desired by many of you.  So I'm curious about the bolded.

They do not have any clear defined policies for any of these, their manifesto does not mention science, technology or manufacturing. However, they are committed to sustainability and reducing carbon emissions, but their methods for doing this are expensive and in the long term not actually guaranteed to reducing carbon footprint or improving sustainability. For example their transport policy penalises usage without providing a mechanism for improving the infrastructure of any alternative methods; their fuel piolicy simply moves the carbon footprint further back the supply chain but doesn't actually change the net value; their power generation policy promotes costly alternative energy generation methods whose manufacture and delivery systems are no more green than traditional methods and whose output efficiency is considerably lower. The Green approach appears to be management via punitive taxation and not much else.

Edited by Dean - September 19 2010 at 12:37

Progist wrote: We should have politicians who are truly representative, and if they don't support what they were elected for, kick them out and replace them with someone who does! Until then, we shouldn't be surprised that most of them are careerist, self-serving liggers. Sod the lot of them IMO

See, I'd rather see more smaller parties myself.  A large party cannot possibly agree with everything you believe.  For example, I may lean to the left but I that does not mean I agree with everything on the left.  I may have more centrist views in some areas.  I'd rather either be my own party, or be part of a minority of other like-minded (well, more closely, nobody can really share exact same views as someone else) individuals.

Another problem I find with the Green Party is they consist of right wing people as well.  Green issues aren't a pure left agenda.  There's even a guy in the Tory party who is supposed to be a very green-orientated guy (but he's the son of a millionaire, I think).

James wrote: Yes, I do agree with you both on this point.  What I meant by that point though, is that I'm kind of glad they're a minority party after stabbing many of its core (and disillusioned) supporters in the back.  I don't know if I want to give AV a chance if it means they got more power.  I realise it's a fairer system and I agree with that.  I actually want to see full Electoral Reform though.  Not half-arsed AV.

But AV doesn't guarantee the Lib Dems more power, far from it! If it were passed it would give the electorate more confidence to vote for the candidates they really want. The Lib Dem vote has always fluctuated wildly as they are usually the recipient of protest and tactical votes. AV would drastically reduce the need for such votes. I for one will not be voting Lib Dems again (at least, not under Clegg and his centre-right vision), even if we achieve electoral reform.

James wrote: Of course, you have to remember that with full electorial reform, you also run the risk of fringe parties like the BNP getting more MPs.  I am in favour of this consequence though, as it does mean fairer results and also less power for the two main parties.

Ultimately, you either believe in true democracy or you don't. Either you want a system that's loaded in favour of two main parties, regardless of how diverse the country's political landscape genuinely is, or you want to see that diversity of opinion reflected in parliament. Even so, I don't think we'll see a huge explosion of BNP MPs strolling into government, and even if there were some BNP victories under AV, the system is likely to make coalition politics a much more routine affair and no other parties would be prepared to strike a deal with them.

James wrote: So I'm a bit at a loss currently as to whether I shall vote for or against AV.  The whole thing just smells of greed and power to me though.  Unless the Lib Dems can somehow persuade me they're doing something decent and not just Tory whipping boys and girls, like they currently appear to be.

As was said earlier, a vote for AV is a vote for electoral reform. The media, and especially the Tories will take a No vote as a wholehearted rejection of the principle of electoral reform. It will be an excuse for Labour to kick it in the long grass once more and the Lib Dems are likely to get hammered when their 5 years in semi-government are up so they won't have another opportunity to push for electoral reform for, quite possibly, several decades. This is our only shot at scrapping our corrupt and drastically unfair voting system. This is beyond party politics, it's a chance to change the rules.

^ non-partisan governments only work in small communities (Guernsey is the only example I can think of at the moment)

lazland wrote: Commenting on Dean's point re Guernsey, I agree, but, surely, this is an argument for self contained government within smaller regions/areas, with Westminster meeting only as a sort of central assembly overseeing items of national import say a couple of times per year?

Erm, ExitTheLemming, you didn't quote me in that post...

Edited by James - September 21 2010 at 08:11

Ah.

Fair enough.  I was getting confused!