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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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 Posted: September 23 2010 at 20:15 |
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It's a perfect mystery...
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: September 23 2010 at 20:29 |
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Oooh! OOooh! a perfect Mr Tea?
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: September 24 2010 at 04:15 |
 Dean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
And despite the hostile environment of England he atracts huge ceowds.
Iván |
England is not hostile to catholics - this kind of knee-jerk rhetoric is dangerous and wrong. |
Agreed on both statements. However, you have already made a pointed allusion to sectarian violence, which has afflicted all sectors of the Northern Ireland population and beyond since circa 1970. Remember that the British troops were first moved into the province to protect the catholic community from protestant aggression. (and thanks to some very brave and indefatigable people on both sides of the divide, the worst excesses of this insanity appear to behind us) So I ain't disagreeing with you but just want to suggest that some posters may confuse 'England' with the 'United Kingdom'
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 24 2010 at 07:30 |
Trademark wrote:
Oooh! OOooh! a perfect Mr Tea? |
There is no such thing as a perfect Mr. T, there is only The T.  I even heard that Mr. Coffee isn't perfect either.
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 24 2010 at 07:31
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 24 2010 at 09:14 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Dean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
And despite the hostile environment of England he atracts huge ceowds.
Iván |
England is not hostile to catholics - this kind of knee-jerk rhetoric is dangerous and wrong. |
Agreed on both statements. However, you have already made a pointed allusion to sectarian violence, which has afflicted all sectors of the Northern Ireland population and beyond since circa 1970. Remember that the British troops were first moved into the province to protect the catholic community from protestant aggression.
(and thanks to some very brave and indefatigable people on both sides of the divide, the worst excesses of this insanity appear to behind us)
So I ain't disagreeing with you but just want to suggest that some posters may confuse 'England' with the 'United Kingdom'
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No Exitthel, I know the difference between the UK and England and I'm talking about England in this circumstances, not because of the Government or the majority of the people, but if a Pope is visiting a country and one guy started a LEGAL CAMPAIGN to arrest him, and when found that this isn't possible,he organizes a rally of 20,000 persons, makes propaganda around the world,. coordinates with all the hostile associations, and there's people accusing him of Nazi, because when he was a minor he had to join the German army because it was mandatory....This is hostile.
Also you need to know that Catholics (According to Dean's numbers) don't exceed 5.8% of the English population, so they are a minority and a minority (Even compared with the 12.5% atheists) and disliked by the Anglicans, because a huge number of Priests has left this religion to join Catholicism because if the decision of Anglicans to ordain gay and female priests, and this dissidents were accepted as priests by the Catholic Church without the requirement of being single, so they are married Catholic Priests now.
Remember that any judge who wants his 15 minutes of fame can order an arrest even if it's illegal (A mandatary has legal immunity even if the country is not part of the ONU, mainly if this country has diplomatic representation in England), and this would cause embarrasment to a man of 80 something years who represents the biggest religion of the world
Even the news networks announced this to be a hostile visit:
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1.- FOX NEWS: Pope Benedict XVI faces hostile atmosphere in UK, admits church failures in sex abuse scandal
2.- Newsmax.com: The hostility that many British are voicing toward Pope Benedict XVI has shocked church officials in Rome as they prepare for the first formal state visit to Great Britain by a reigning pontiff.
The four-day papal visit, which begins Thursday, has prompted negative reactions by far exceeding anything the Pope has encountered when traveling even to non-Christian countries such as Turkey or Israel.
3.- Winnipeg Free Press: Pope Benedict XVI waded into the hostile atmosphere of highly secular Britain
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There are many other refferences to the hostile environment both in UK and England.
So don't tell me this wasn't expected to be a hostile reception, thanks God the good people of England gave a warm reception and more people than expected when to receive him.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 24 2010 at 09:21
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: September 24 2010 at 10:17 |
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^ Ok you clearly discern the difference between England and the UK so apologies for implying that may not be the case. There's circa 60 million people in the UK and about 10% are Catholic. Given that 20,000 people is 0.03 of the entire population who don't appear to like the Pope and there are at least 6 million who we assume do, it hardly constitutes 'hostility to catholics'
Despite what you may believe, people are perfectly entitled to express their disapproval of the teachings and dogmas of any world faith. (Apart from Islam of course, they just kill you)
I can't comment on the attempted arrest you cite but yeah, it seems a tad silly and transparent posturing at best. Organised dissent is just a microcosm of politics, and I hope we might agree that the opposition in the House of Commons in Westminster is supposed to be hostile to the party in power. No-one's infallible after all.
Edited by ExittheLemming - September 24 2010 at 11:04
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 24 2010 at 10:50 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Also you need to know that Catholics (According to Dean's numbers) don't exceed 5.8% of the English population, so they are a minority and a minority (Even compared with the 12.5% atheists) and disliked by the Anglicans, because a huge number of Priests has left this religion to join Catholicism because if the decision of Anglicans to ordain gay and female priests, and this dissidents were accepted as priests by the Catholic Church without the requirement of being single, so they are married Catholic Priests now.
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This is not quite true or accurate, but is far too complicated to go into here - many Anglicans see themselves as non papal catholic, where "catholic" means "universal" and includes protestant, orthadox and roman catholic churches that are represented in the four marks of the church ("in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church"). Within the anglican church the "high church" follows "catholic" traditions and are known as anglo-catholic - it is from this sector that some have "defected" to rome (and mainly in the USA, not UK) - those priests were practicing catholicism within the protestant church before their "defection" - those vicars are simply crossing out "queen" and writing "pope" as the head of their church. This is an age-old schism within the anglican church that has been present since its formation 400 years ago - it is not new and the ordination of gay and female vicars has only brought this division to the forefront (and hence the public eye), it was not created by, or was a direct result of, said ordinations. This is a result of liberal vs. conservative divisions within the anglican church and has nothing to do with rome, so catholics are not "disliked by anglicans" as a consequence of it.
The ordination of "defecting" married priests is not new either and has been permitted for 30 years in the west and even longer in the east. A cynic would ask if these priests would be welcome if they didn't bring a ready-formed congregation with them.
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 24 2010 at 15:25 |
Dean wrote:
This is not quite true or accurate, but is far too complicated to go into here - many Anglicans see themselves as non papal catholic, where "catholic" means "universal" and includes protestant, orthadox and roman catholic churches that are represented in the four marks of the church ("in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church"). |
More or less Dean, the Roman Catholic,. Greek Orthodox, Lutherans, Roman Catholics and some Eastern rites who have swore acceptance to the Pope and can vote in a conclave, are all Catholic Churches, the Protestants reject the Catholic adjective.
Dean wrote:
Within the anglican church the "high church" follows "catholic" traditions and are known as anglo-catholic - it is from this sector that some have "defected" to rome (and mainly in the USA, not UK) - those priests were practicing catholicism within the protestant church before their "defection" - those vicars are simply crossing out "queen" and writing "pope" as the head of their church. This is an age-old schism within the anglican church that has been present since its formation 400 years ago - it is not new and the ordination of gay and female vicars has only brought this division to the forefront (and hence the public eye), it was not created by, or was a direct result of, said ordinations. This is a result of liberal vs. conservative divisions within the anglican church and has nothing to do with rome, so catholics are not "disliked by anglicans" as a consequence of it. |
Again, the relations Catholic - Anglicans were very good until a few years ago, many believed that both churches would be the first to reunite, but the decision of the Anglicans to admit gay and female priests, has caused a great gap between both religions, even worst when Anglican priests have massively asked the Roman Catholic church to accept them, and in an unexpected movement, the Roman Catholic Church has accepted them without the need of a new ordination and even if married, allowing them to keep their civil status.
This of course has caused a great division between Anglicans and Roman Catholics, taking the relation between both churches to the lowest point since Henry VIII. It's obvious that the Pope was in the UK to support this conversions and I assure you that the Anglican Church doesn't like this.
Dean wrote:
The ordination of "defecting" married priests is not new either and has been permitted for 30 years in the west and even longer in the east. A cynic would ask if these priests would be welcome if they didn't bring a ready-formed congregation with them. |
Yes it's true, but this was an exceptional case and never massively, much less without asking new ordination.
And again, there is no precedent of 30 married Bishops that will keep their rank as in this case. The total number is around 1,000 Anglican Priests, which makes a very significative percentage of British Anglicans (Some say about 30%), even more dangerous is that the congregations and parrishes of his priests will probably follow them.
Iván
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 24 2010 at 18:31 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
And again, there is no precedent of 30 married Bishops that will keep their rank as in this case. The total number is around 1,000 Anglican Priests, which makes a very significative percentage of British Anglicans (Some say about 30%), even more dangerous is that the congregations and parrishes of his priests will probably follow them.
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Yay! Numbers  ... I believe there are 6 disafected bishops and they claim that "about a dozen" will defect - 30 is an optimistic projection - there are 250 anglican bishops in the UK, 12 from 250 is not a significant number. To date only one bishop has converted and he was retired and is not a bishop in the catholic faith. There are 20,000 clergy in the UK, so while 1,000 priests sounds a lot (and I think that, again, this is optimistic figure), it isn't "a significant number", with dwindling church attendance (both anglican and catholic) culling this many "jobs" will not cause any problems for the CofE. The congregation may not be so keen to follow if they lose their church building as a result - more people are attached emotionally to their parish church than they are to the vicar who works in it.
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 24 2010 at 20:36 |
That's not the info I got:
| Cardinal William Levada, the Vatican’s chief doctrinal officer, said only that 20 to 30 Anglican bishops had inquired about becoming Catholics, although priests far outnumber bishops.
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or
Cardinal William Levada, prefect of the CDF, said the decree was a response by the Pope to a demand repeatedly expressed by a number of Anglicans. According to the Zenit news agency, between 20 and 30 Anglican bishops worldwide have already asked for this sort of provision.
A Vatican statement said: "In this Apostolic Constitution the Holy Father has introduced a canonical structure ... which will allow former Anglicans to enter full communion with the Catholic Church while preserving elements of the distinctive Anglican spirituality."
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Even iff the 30 don't join, it could be the begining of a schism in the Anglican Church
BTW: I don't know if it's right, but the list on Wikipedia mentions only 71 Anglican Bishops in UK...I don't believe Bishop is such a common position to have 250 in England.
There are nearly 26 million Catholics in Perú (Apparently 25 million Anglicans in England) and our territory is 10 times the size of England but we have only 50 Bishops.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 24 2010 at 20:54
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 05:39 |
there must be something whose nonexistence would cancel all internal possibility whatsoever.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 05:45 |
^ If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you are with....
If there is a God out there, what is he waiting for, a sh*t load of argos points to make a trip worthwhile?
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 21:16 |
*quietly enters debate*
. . .
*runs away*
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 21:35 |
Hi JLocke, took the test and understand why Catholics failed.
Most of the questions are about other religions and even about USA Supreme Court rullings.
Even though I made 14/15 missed only the last question.
Iván
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 21:41 |
JLocke wrote:
*quietly enters debate*
. . .
*runs away* |
If you couldn't guess atheists know more about religions in general than religious people, and if you couldn't gather that a majority of faithful people in the US can't be arsed to form a critical thought in their wittle bwains about religion, then you haven't been paying attention to discourse about religion here in the past 50 years.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 22:08 |
stonebeard wrote:
JLocke wrote:
*quietly enters debate*
. . .
*runs away* |
If you couldn't guess atheists know more about religions in general than religious people, and if you couldn't gather that a majority of faithful people in the US can't be arsed to form a critical thought in their wittle bwains about religion, then you haven't been paying attention to discourse about religion here in the past 50 years.
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I did not post that article for our benefit. I did it for the benefit of the thick-headed believers on here who act as if we are the ignorant ones. I posted it in that manner so as to not ruffle any feathers. If you couldn't guess that I am an Atheist, then you haven't been paying much attention to these boards here in the past year. If you knew I was an Atheist and still chose to speak to me as if I'm clueless, then you're just an a****le.
Edited by JLocke - September 28 2010 at 22:23
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 22:23 |
JLocke wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
JLocke wrote:
*quietly enters debate*
. . .
*runs away* |
If you couldn't guess atheists know more about religions in general than religious people, and if you couldn't gather that a majority of faithful people in the US can't be arsed to form a critical thought in their wittle bwains about religion, then you haven't been paying attention to discourse about religion here in the past 50 years.
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I did not post that article for our benefit. I did it for the benefit of the thick-headed believers on here who act as if we are the ignorant ones. I posted it in that manner so as to not ruffle any feathers. If you couldn't guess than I am an Atheist, then you haven't been paying much attention to these boards here in the past year. If you knew I was an Atheist and still chose to speak to me as if I'm clueless, then you're just an a****le.
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I actually meant that as a non-personal thing. Substitute "one" for all "you"s.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 22:24 |
stonebeard wrote:
JLocke wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
JLocke wrote:
*quietly enters debate*
. . .
*runs away* |
If you couldn't guess atheists know more about religions in general than religious people, and if you couldn't gather that a majority of faithful people in the US can't be arsed to form a critical thought in their wittle bwains about religion, then you haven't been paying attention to discourse about religion here in the past 50 years.
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I did not post that article for our benefit. I did it for the benefit of the thick-headed believers on here who act as if we are the ignorant ones. I posted it in that manner so as to not ruffle any feathers. If you couldn't guess than I am an Atheist, then you haven't been paying much attention to these boards here in the past year. If you knew I was an Atheist and still chose to speak to me as if I'm clueless, then you're just an a****le.
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I actually meant that as a non-personal thing. Substitute "one" for all "you"s.
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Oh, I see. Then I guess I'm the a****le.  Sorry.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 22:29 |
JLocke wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
JLocke wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
JLocke wrote:
*quietly enters debate*
. . .
*runs away* |
If you couldn't guess atheists know more about religions in general than religious people, and if you couldn't gather that a majority of faithful people in the US can't be arsed to form a critical thought in their wittle bwains about religion, then you haven't been paying attention to discourse about religion here in the past 50 years.
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I did not post that article for our benefit. I did it for the benefit of the thick-headed believers on here who act as if we are the ignorant ones. I posted it in that manner so as to not ruffle any feathers. If you couldn't guess than I am an Atheist, then you haven't been paying much attention to these boards here in the past year. If you knew I was an Atheist and still chose to speak to me as if I'm clueless, then you're just an a****le.
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I actually meant that as a non-personal thing. Substitute "one" for all "you"s.
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Oh, I see. Then I guess I'm the a****le. Sorry. |
No, my bad. I think I took the same test. Did well on everything but the Jewish Sabbath. C'mon Saturday's close. Then I realized I'm at a Christian college again and that I may very well be the most philosophically seasoned undergrad there (apologetics doesn't count). Then I was sad..
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: September 28 2010 at 22:41 |
How could anyone get a single question on that test wrong?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?
