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Lark the Starless 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 15 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 1902
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 Posted: September 16 2010 at 11:03 |
 GY!BE wrote:
UK is a great example that the audience doesn't make the bands. |
I did find it rather odd that "Thick as a Brick" actually got to the #1 spot of the Billboard charts back in the day (correct me if I'm wrong, please  ).
"Close to the Edge" managed to hit the top 10, I believe.
Let's not also discount Italy's love of the English prog going on at the time (Genesis, the most obvious), but that's a different topic. 
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17777
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Posted: September 16 2010 at 13:15 |
Garion81 wrote:
Okay I get what you are saying to a degree but I also grew up in those times and listened to a lot of Southern California radio stations that were not in SB that were doing some amazing things. There was a station in Garden Grove KTBT, yes I said Garden Grove, that played all request. They had no play list until someone would call them.
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I think that is where Guy Guden and his Space Pirate Radio first showed up ... using his English accent ... he was always good at voices!
Garion81 wrote:
For the LA stations one you leave off your list is KNAC which all the way to the late 70's played all sorts of things including every Monday playing 4 hours of one artist and they did not stop at commercial releases.
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I didn't ignore them, specially when this is one station that should stand up above them all anywhere in the world for their record and amount of music played! KNAC, as far as I could tell, did not have the luxury of the big corporate money to make a dent in music sales ... but it had enough clout in the music itself that make sure that the whole thing grabbed a foothold for the future and a foothold that never died. And in many ways, KNAC is probably a lot more responsible for the London scene making it in the West Coast, than anywhere else ... for KMET/KLOS it was a Led Zeppelin song, a Pink Floyd song, a Kinks song and a Moody Blues song, and they were back to their rotation of music ... and it was the extent of their hipness and corporate kissing!
KNAC also had other connections that were much more interesting. They were tied in some way to Moby Disk, and Archie Patterson (later Eurock -- now in its 35th year or more!) and later the record label Jem ... and that connection was not quite clear and I think that there were competing complications all around. Archie has remained the independent person since and his music choices and selections are the most eccentric ever, but one has to give him credit for the largest amount of new music and experimentation than anyone else out there! No other group gives you such an amazing list.
I can not speak for KNAC since 1980 or so and this is as much as I can tell you from my point of view. Guy Guden in his Space Pirate Show would have been a major contribution to KNAC, but I have a feeling that they turned down his format because Guy insisted on no commercials to the point where for a period of time his show was listener sponsored to prevent KTYD from placing commercials in that time slot. I am not sure that KNAC would even welcome such anarchy, and a process that would undermine their very own control of the station. Guy has never spoken about this, and I think that there could be a reason here and El Jeffe (spoken mexican style of course) probably has a lot to do with it! Only thing missing was Sam Peckinpah and his slow motion camera!
In the end, it was the fractional egos that hurt it all. No one could get along with anyone else to get something done that was different and made a point that no one else had the guts to stand up for! London had the advantage ... fight the BeeBeebSee ... which goes back even as far as The Goons and further I'm sure ... and also had musical publications that were concentrating on a lot of new music and they were not afraid to make the artists look and feel better about their work than was really there. In America, a publication that stood up for music? ... is an oxymoron! Which is often my biggest complaint here ... so many "fans" discussing their "favorites" and simply oiling the machine with more money ... and sometimes that music is not as good, or great as other things out there ... but you'r enot going to hear it, or read it because it is not a part of the "favorites" or the "top ten" ... nothing has changed!
Edited by moshkito - September 16 2010 at 13:24
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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John 6
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 29 2010
Location: Leigh, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 23
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Posted: September 19 2010 at 11:38 |
The problem we have always had in the UK is the music media, which is so up themselves, and has absolutely no idea what the public actually listen to. They spend their time on bands and artists, claiming to be "spokespeople of a generation", but in reality have very little talent, and are mostly forgotten about within 2 or 3 years. They really haven't a clue, and those journalists who claim Prog musicians are pretentious, need to take a long look at themselves. We have had to wait for radio stations like Planet Rock to get any sort of airplay, where in the past we only had people like Fluff Freeman and Tommy Vance on Radio 1, and that was it!
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Prog Is A Man's Best Friend.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17777
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 20:49 |
John 6 wrote:
The problem we have always had in the UK is the music media, which is so up themselves, and has absolutely no idea what the public actually listen to. They spend their time on bands and artists, claiming to be "spokespeople of a generation", but in reality have very little talent, and are mostly forgotten about within 2 or 3 years. They really haven't a clue, and those journalists who claim Prog musicians are pretentious, need to take a long look at themselves. We have had to wait for radio stations like Planet Rock to get any sort of airplay, where in the past we only had people like Fluff Freeman and Tommy Vance on Radio 1, and that was it! |
That's easy ... the Internet is eating all this apart and the Beebeebsee ... and deservedly so.
The over "spoken" mention of claiming this or that for a generation ... is something I can stand up for, since my generation has at least a couple of symbols that are major and important to my life and living, as they have fo rmany others who wrote music about it and sang it, and wrote it and painted it ... ... they are:
1. Woodstock where we left all of our garbage behind and stated clearly that we don't really care ... we just like to get stoned and play around with the girls!
2. Dr. Martin Luther King. Maybe not as big in Europe as here in America, but it is almost the same thing as the Berlin Wall in Europe ... it separated more than a country ... it separated a soul! And there are major issues with it still and the music scene in America is a perfect example.
3. London 68/69. Between movies and art and music, there is no period more inspiring and intelligent and not afraid to create new things. The major issue is that we separate King Crimson and ELP and others as "progressive" and then think they can stand up on their own. Not likely to happen. History and intelligence (see my review of KC's first album on PA) will define KC a lot more than it will as "progressive" ... but that is something that this board and many others are really scared of talking about ... of all people here, only Dean has shown the time and place with pictures and images like I have ... and made a "time and place" live ... not only for me. But if you see The Royal Shakespeare Company and you never heard of Peter Brook and his studies into Gurdjieff and more importantly how Peter adapted a lot of that work into rehearsal techniques that defined a generation in acting and work ... and is still remembered today fondly. What is not quite visible here ... is how Robert used some similar working processes to help define the music and shape it into something new and different. In reality it was not that new ... it was just that the presentation was ... top rate ... and if you don't appreciate the spectacle you are not only blind, you are also ... a fool?
4. The Wall. Folks here never got to hear/see the 50's and 60's with the Voice of America and other radio things attempting to invade the Iron Curtain ... and music by many folks like The Beatles, Elvis, Chuck Berry and others were extremelly important to the whole idea and concept of "freedom" ... something that a lot of those countries did not have ... any artistic freedom whatsoever. Pink Floyd picked up on that but had already made a mark with an album that was not as important as it was nice to listen to. Lyrics were fine, but the feel behind it all was better.
5. Walesa and Poland and Kieslowski. If ever, there was a country that was growing to become westernized and due to make it at any time, the music and film industry of this country stands out as one of the most magical and important of the 20th century ... the film and the music was already studying who you were inside ... and that was major when it came to Walesa to fight the communist system and eventually help get rid of them.
6. VietNam and the IRA situation, and then Iran and then Iraq and then Afghanistan. All of it for oil! The IRA at least was about something else ... Epitath anyone?
7. The advent of the media ... tv became a deflowered teenager in the late 60's ... and naked too!
And there are more moments ... but those are major ... I was born in 1950.
So you can see why some lyrics by this or that or some music that is considered "prog" is not important to me ... life has a lot more than just a word ... for its art! That's one point. And a lot of what Genesis was singing about (except Lamb!), or ELP ... (skip the first 2 albums) ... was not important or valuable ... it simply lacked soul and importance. It was simply rock lyrics trying to make themselves relevant ... and that is not progressive. Art Bears and Henry Cow were a lot more progressive even if the lyrics were nothing and about nothing and simply true 52 word pickup in true form that Bowie never had the balls to use or sing with -- though he talked about it!
To be honest with you I am not sure that a lot of people can understand the depth in music, and its importance when all you heard is Rush, and Brittany Spears and the latest nude picture out there that is selling albums. Or the latest winner of American Idol! Or my favorite ... the dump James Labrie threads ... guess what ... he didn't have to get dumped ... the band appears to be done for a while!
Where is the depth? .... where is the value of the work? ...
All else is like you having sex with the girlfriend in college ... you remember it once and say it was nice ... but forgot all about it! ... how progressive that thought must be! The girl and the whole thing didn't mean much after all that! How empty you must feel inside when that happens! And some noise and loud guitar called metal is going to fill it up for you! Or some prog band!
Edited by moshkito - October 02 2010 at 16:17
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: September 21 2010 at 10:48 |
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^Another meaningless rant that has nothing to do with the post you quoted.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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John 6
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 29 2010
Location: Leigh, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 23
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Posted: September 21 2010 at 12:39 |
sleeper wrote:
^Another meaningless rant that has nothing to do with the post you quoted. |
You said it dude!
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Prog Is A Man's Best Friend.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17777
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Posted: September 21 2010 at 14:05 |
Hi,
Too bad that both of you can not read enough to appreciate the point, the hard work and the effort that it took to make the very music that you like ... available and appreciated today ... hopefully your future will be so full and meaningless that you will appreciate music and art ... for the whole of your life, not just for a meaningless, and selfish, orgasm ... with a girl (or otherwise of course) that you dumped!
How progressive of you to think you know it all ... and everyone else is stupid ... and never has to do with the topic because you don't know what the topic is!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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The Sleepwalker
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 15141
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Posted: September 21 2010 at 14:12 |
Moshkito, you are my hero. 
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: September 21 2010 at 14:24 |
Moshkito, you're like Mandrakeroot, except 9001 times more amazing.
Edited by horsewithteeth11 - September 21 2010 at 14:34
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The Truth
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 19 2009
Location: Kansas
Status: Offline
Points: 21795
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Posted: September 21 2010 at 20:45 |
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That hurt my head.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 21 2010 at 20:49 |
horsewithteeth11 wrote:
Moshkito, you're like Mandrakeroot, except 9001 times more amazing.
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root's multiple identities and obsession with pregnant women was becoming tiresome
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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John 6
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 29 2010
Location: Leigh, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 23
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Posted: September 22 2010 at 03:28 |
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
Too bad that both of you can not read enough to appreciate the point, the hard work and the effort that it took to make the very music that you like ... available and appreciated today ... hopefully your future will be so full and meaningless that you will appreciate music and art ... for the whole of your life, not just for a meaningless, and selfish, orgasm ... with a girl (or otherwise of course) that you dumped!
How progressive of you to think you know it all ... and everyone else is stupid ... and never has to do with the topic because you don't know what the topic is! |
Did you actually read my original post!!??? Your response was the ramblings of a drug crazed buffoon, who spouts and spews out meaningless nonsense at every available opportunity. Have a long word with yourself, and stop talking what you are shovelling. And obviously, the only person who thinks they know it all, is yourself. Your comments are so unbelievably condescending.
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Prog Is A Man's Best Friend.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: September 22 2010 at 07:44 |
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
Too bad that both of you can not read enough to appreciate the point, the hard work and the effort that it took to make the very music that you like ... available and appreciated today ... hopefully your future will be so full and meaningless that you will appreciate music and art ... for the whole of your life, not just for a meaningless, and selfish, orgasm ... with a girl (or otherwise of course) that you dumped!
How progressive of you to think you know it all ... and everyone else is stupid ... and never has to do with the topic because you don't know what the topic is! |
And yet its you thats making the high and mighty declerations of what is prog and what is not, of what has artistic value and what doesnt, of whether I or anybody else has the ability to appreciate music (clealry only you are allowed to make these distinctions).
Why dont you get off your high horse and stop writing the same rant every time someone starts a thread, especially when your rant is filled with rubbish and has absolutely nothing to do with the threads you post in.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17777
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Posted: September 22 2010 at 16:44 |
Hi,
You're both the ones that are showing the anger ... a mirror (without the make up of course) might be more useful!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: September 22 2010 at 17:37 |
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what was the topic
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John 6
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 29 2010
Location: Leigh, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 23
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Posted: September 23 2010 at 06:55 |
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
You're both the ones that are showing the anger ... a mirror (without the make up of course) might be more useful! |
Meanwhile, back on Earth........
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Prog Is A Man's Best Friend.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: September 23 2010 at 08:23 |
. [/QUOTE]
The flipside to all that exposure is that Americans tend to not classify those bands as Prog, they don't own the albums or "know" the bands, they simply see them as "this band I remember that had one or two good songs". The bands are considered "Classic Rock" and are played alongside the Skynyrd's & Nugent's.
Case in point, Kansas. Aside from "COWS" and "DITW", 95% of Americans couldn't name another Kansas song...they're pretty much considered a flash in the pan, despite the fact that their first 5 records (at least) are Prog Rock gems! Rush = "Tom Sawyer" and "Limelight"...Yes = "OOALH" and "Roundabout"...Tull = "Aqualung"...ELP = "Lucky Man". These bands may be part of the Mainstream concious, but that same concious holds them captive to the "they only have 2 songs" mindset. [/QUOTE]
I tend to agree with this. I agree with it not only due to the obvious point which is the influence of radio airplay over people in general but, because of my experience playing for audiences over the decades.
After performing for audiences over 30 years, you can easily make a conclusion revolving around the percentage of society that actually feels this way and according to me, that percentage is high. My personal observation is making reference geographically to the east coast. When you listen to the radio or watch TV, you might tend to think the whole entire U.S. developed this mentality. But I won't say that for sure due to the widely condensed areas in the U.S., where kids grew up on music with almost a kind of different cultral background. Religious towns, Christian and Satanic.
Many kids who grew up on a farm either in the south or the mid west, that heard Roy Clark play guitar could understand the personal talents from Keith Emerson to Brian Jones. Simply because they were exposed to musicianship at a very young age which was quite opposite from the rock audiences in the big cities here on the east coast, where you had thousands of teenagers that were fans of Classic Rock and identified ELP, Kansas, and Tull as the 2 song band.
I find it to be very sad when I think of kids who were in my age group that knew nothing about Progressive Rock and were Nugent fans....yet, danced to 7/8 time signatures at an ELP show. It showed to a large degree that the Progressive Rock movement was reaching as many people as possible. The attraction to rock fans was originally Keith Emerson rubbing a control ribbon between his legs, Rick Wakeman dressing in capes and surrounded by a fog machine, and Ian Anderson looking like a Rock n' Roll pirate as he leaped across the stage. However the original intention was for the music to reach everyone in the public whether prog or just classic rock. It seemed that kids who were teenagers in 72' and listened to Hard Rock were in fact paying close attention to the Prog concept albums of that day, as opposed to the teenagers in the late 70's and throughout the 80's which,....more of them had identified with the 2 song per prog band mentality. This all seems very true to me.
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Pelata
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2010
Location: NC-USA
Status: Offline
Points: 364
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Posted: September 23 2010 at 12:25 |
Again on Kansas, they are playing a convention gig in my area this October. Condensed version: my area has this large international convention of my industry 2x a year. It's a week long each time and there's always live entertainment on the weekend...this year it's Kansas.
Now, when I asked for my pass from my company this year and they asked who was playing, I smiled from ear to ear said "Kansas!" I got puzzled looks..."Kansas? They're still around??" I responded "Yeah, I LOVE Kansas!! I'm a big fan! to which they replied...wait for it.......
...."They only have two songs!!"
I kid you not....LOL!
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Fusionman
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 86
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Posted: September 26 2010 at 20:03 |
Hey I thought I might just mention Japan and China! I know this thread is about "America's acceptance", but they are worthy of note. It's a European and today an American issue to not accept more obscure forms of music. Japan routinely holds high quality festivals bringing in American and European artists, despite relatively little contribution into the prog, jazz, and fusion fields. South America also seems to have a greater appreciation for obscurity than North America...or Europe. And obviously most of the middle-east's music is VERY underground and local.
Overall there just seems to be a few cultural characteristics which allow for it to accept obscure fine music. America used to have it. Japan still does (but decreasingly), South America is still the power-house for acceptance of music.
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MaxerJ
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 127
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Posted: September 27 2010 at 21:55 |
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where has this thread gone i don't even
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Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts
 'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
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America's love of prog rock
