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Topic ClosedTheism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 12:56
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

I still don't quite understand what your point about these numbers is ... I think that it's safe to say that most people from the UK don't care about the pope, no matter whether they're religious or not. My mother is a Catholic and she doesn't like him at all - mainly because of his stupid statements about women, abortion, contraception and so forth.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/most-uk-catholics-support-abortion-and-use-of-contraception-2083291.html

Atheists are the least of the pope's problems, apparently.
And despite the hostile environment of England he atracts huge ceowds.
 
The article is funny:
 
Quote The research, the biggest survey of its kind, which also sampled a control group of non-Catholics, reveals that just one in 10 of the church's followers oppose an abortion when a woman has been raped. Just one in 14 opposes abortion if the health of a woman is in danger.
 
Yes many of us agree with abortion after the rape....But, what this guys don't mention is that the church admits therapeutical abortion (Mother in risk).
 
Why don't they do a research about the abortion after a night of fun? Or the stupid argument that "It's the woman's body"?
 
I'm sure the vast majority of Catholics including me, will disagree.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 23 2010 at 12:57
            
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 13:06
^ I'm sure you're sure - that's the problem.Wink
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 13:30
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

And despite the hostile environment of England he atracts huge ceowds.
 
Iván
England is not hostile to catholics - this kind of knee-jerk rhetoric is dangerous and wrong.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 13:34
Let's also not forget that it's completely irrelevant how many followers a religion has. Could be a dozen, a hundred, a million or billions - it doesn't increase the likelihood of its tenets being actually true.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 14:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

England is not hostile to catholics - this kind of knee-jerk rhetoric is dangerous and wrong.
 
Please Dean, a several months propaganda asking to arrest the Pope with a lot of supporters is an hostile environment.
 
Don't tell me the contrary.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 14:24
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Let's also not forget that it's completely irrelevant how many followers a religion has. Could be a dozen, a hundred, a million or billions - it doesn't increase the likelihood of its tenets being actually true.
 
No not at all, but it  proves that no matter the oganization, the fact that they joined with activist of gays, lesbians, feminist etc associations, and being majority in comparison with Catholics, the Pope receives a warm welcome and hundreds of thousands go to receive him.
 
Still we live in a religious world.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 23 2010 at 15:21
            
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 14:37
^ Who joined with gays and lesbians? You kind of lost me.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:00
There has to be a way to turn this into a libertarian/liberal debate...  Tongue
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:18
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ Who joined with gays and lesbians? You kind of lost me.
You know I rarely talk without support:
 
Quote Although there were protests against the 1982 visit, this year the umbrella group Protest The Pope has united secular, gay, feminist and other activist groups in a co-ordinated campaign.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11186463 published on September 8, 2010
 
Clearly specified that in a copordinated campaign, and being Dawkins co-organizer as Vice-President of the British Humanist Association, yes he joined other activists.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 16:23
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

England is not hostile to catholics - this kind of knee-jerk rhetoric is dangerous and wrong.
 
Please Dean, a several months propaganda asking to arrest the Pope with a lot of supporters is an hostile environment.
 
Don't tell me the contrary.
 
Iván
Some people were upset by the Church's handling of the child abuse allegations, some people were a little upset that £20,000,000 of tax money was used to pay for the visit and a few people used the visit for political/ideological propaganda - but >50 million people couldn't give a damn one way or the other - that does not make England hostile to the catholics.
 
We stopped persecuting catholics a long time ago, catholics do not get harrassed in the street or driven out of their homes, no catholic priests have been arrested or prosecuted and no catholic priests have been forced to hide in secret rooms in country houses for over 400 hundred years.
 
So, England is not hostile to catholics. Stern Smile 
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Points: 4006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 17:12
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

However, I'm not sure how the above had nothing to do with Dawkins or atheism when Dawkins spoke at the rally. Al Murray is quoted as saying he was ''perplexed'' that it was a state visit. The Protest The Pope is a co-ordinated campaign that ''opposes the fact that it (the Pope's visit) is, in part, financed by the taxpayers.'', whereas John Paul II's pastoral visit was largely funded by the Church itself. Some secularists have clearly been annoyed at the UK Government picking up a large part of the tab. We were also at war with Argentina in 1982; this could have had a negative impact but I think John Paul II's message of peace struck a general chord at the time.
 
 


AFAIK they declared it a state visit so that the pope is granted diplomatic immunity and cannot be prosecuted for alledged crimes.
 
John Paul II's visit in 1982 should have been a state visit, but this did not go ahead because Britain was at war with Argentina. The Pope did not want to be seen to be taking sides in the conflict. A compromise was reached whereby he made a pastoral visit to Britain, followed by a visit to Argentina. So Benedict XVI's visit was always going to be a state visit since Britain is not currently at war with any Catholic countries... nothing to do with him being prosecuted, that I'm aware of.  
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Points: 4006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 17:23
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

England is not hostile to catholics - this kind of knee-jerk rhetoric is dangerous and wrong.
 
Please Dean, a several months propaganda asking to arrest the Pope with a lot of supporters is an hostile environment.
 
Don't tell me the contrary.
 
Iván
Some people were upset by the Church's handling of the child abuse allegations, some people were a little upset that £20,000,000 of tax money was used to pay for the visit and a few people used the visit for political/ideological propaganda - but >50 million people couldn't give a damn one way or the other - that does not make England hostile to the catholics.
 
Sorry to be picky, Dean, but roughly half the costs for the visit were paid by the Church (ie by ordinary British Catholics, through donations, cost of tickets, etc.) That still leaves about £10-12M from the public purse of course.
 
We stopped persecuting catholics a long time ago, catholics do not get harrassed in the street or driven out of their homes, no catholic priests have been arrested or prosecuted and no catholic priests have been forced to hide in secret rooms in country houses for over 400 hundred years.
 
So, England is not hostile to catholics. Stern Smile 
 
Agreed.
 
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 17:49
^^ Do you think he should be held responsible? 
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 18:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 that does not make England hostile to the catholics.
 
 
 
Never said England is hostile to Catholics Dean, please read my post well.
 
But I do believe the environment was expected to be hostile FOR THE VISIT OF A POPE, people dressed as Nazis due to the Pope's past as a child, feminists, gays and atheists hiring lawyers to arrest the Pope is a hostile environment.
 
Believing that England prosecutes Catholics is as silly as some people in other countries saying Peruvians use bows, arrows and dress in feathers.
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 23 2010 at 18:20
            
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 18:26
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 that does not make England hostile to the catholics.
 
 I seem to recall you guys being extremely hostile to US once upon a time...LOL
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 18:51
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 that does not make England hostile to the catholics.
 
 
 
Never said England is hostile to Catholics Dean, please read my post well.
 
But I do believe the environment was expected to be hostile FOR THE VISIT OF A POPE, people dressed as Nazis due to the Pope's past as a child, feminists, gays and atheists hiring lawyers to arrest the Pope is a hostile environment.
 
Sorry Iván, you called England a hostile environment:
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

And despite the hostile environment of England he atracts huge ceowds.
 
Iván
That imples that all of England is hostile to the pope, the pope is the head of the catholic church, ergo all England is hostile to the catholic church. If you mean Dawkins and some lawyers and a few protestors who dressed up in nazi uniform then say so - but don't call those few people "the hostile environment of England"
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Believing that England prosecutes Catholics is as silly as some people in other countries saying Peruvians use bows, arrows and dress in feathers.
 
Iván
 
 
I don't find this amusing. I find it insulting.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 18:55
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 that does not make England hostile to the catholics.
 
 I seem to recall you guys being extremely hostile to US once upon a time...LOL
If it wasn't for those meddling French you'd still be drinking tea. Tongue
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 19:27
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 that does not make England hostile to the catholics.
 



 I seem to recall you guys being extremely hostile to US once upon a time...LOL

If it wasn't for those meddling French you'd still be drinking tea. Tongue
Very soon we might be drinking another kind of tea...
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 19:51
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 that does not make England hostile to the catholics.
 



 I seem to recall you guys being extremely hostile to US once upon a time...LOL

If it wasn't for those meddling French you'd still be drinking tea. Tongue
Very soon we might be drinking another kind of tea...

Insanitea? LOL
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 20:00
Stupiditea?  Liberteareanism?


Oh wait, synonyms.


Edited by Trademark - September 23 2010 at 20:02
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