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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2010 at 22:00
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Rabid Rabid wrote:

Originally posted by James James wrote:

Indeed, there's a lot of Labour support in Scotland and without them, England would suffer with the Tories in power.

I can't see Scotland being able to support themselves anyhow.
 
It's a shame we have'nt got a Labour Party....all we've got is New Labour, and I don't exactly see them reinforcing ANY of the Labour Party ideaology. Point IS, if you ain't a fat-cat, you're gonna suffer, no matter WHO is in power.
 
Maybe they should privatize the political system and have the UK represented by private tender.
They've done it to everything else.
 
Scumbags.
 


Guess politics really are the same everywhere
 
Unfortunately, yes.  Unhappy
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2010 at 22:02
I used to not believe "the death of liberalism" theory...but I'm beginning too.
Seems pretty much the world, (at least those very few of the world in charge) have turned from it and a system set up where really, it cant be done.
Greece is an example.

Either that or 'liberal' is not that left in reality and Im just way out there Shocked
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2010 at 03:30
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


Either that or 'liberal' is not that left in reality and Im just way out there Shocked


'Liberal' certainly isn't synonymous with 'left'. Liberalism is all about individual freedoms and thus individual responsibility. This can be a positive thing when applied to ideas of freedom of speech and equality, but it gets distinctly right-wing when applied to economic concerns (i.e. freedom = consumerism, loosening controls on banking and business, reducing the public sector and allowing 'the markets' to shape society). That is effectively the agenda our current coalition government is taking - social and economic liberalism, with the emphasis squarely on the latter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2010 at 03:32
This is true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2010 at 08:34
Is anyone following the Labour leadership contest? Its been rattling on for months now without anything remotely exciting happening. It seems as though the real contest is between Milliband senior or Milliband junior and neither have indicated the slightest hint of fundamentally rethinking Labour's policies. They really don't seem to have noticed just how unelectable they've become, do they?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2010 at 08:47
I've been keeping track of it, David.

Last time I looked, Diane Abbott was actually beating Ed Balls and wasn't far behind Andy Burnham.

But yes, it's between David and Ed Millband and unfortunately, the former is in the lead.  Not that I like either of them that much but Ed is the better of the two, as he's more in touch with the Unions and is more of a Brownite.


Edited by James - August 23 2010 at 08:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 08:23
Clegg confirms what we already knew.

I can't believe I supported this opportunistic, ideologically bereft sham of a politician during the election. Never again.

Unless Labour elect a leader prepared to stand up to the right wing zealots attempting to dismantle our society to please a handful of multi-millionaires, someone with the courage to renounce their party's abhorrent past and lead them away from authoritarian attacks on civil liberties, unwinnable military conflicts and damaging micro-management and target-setting culture in the public sector then, quite frankly, I'm through with politics.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 08:34
Originally posted by Trouserpress Trouserpress wrote:

Clegg confirms what we already knew.

I can't believe I supported this opportunistic, ideologically bereft sham of a politician during the election. Never again.

Unless Labour elect a leader prepared to stand up to the right wing zealots attempting to dismantle our society to please a handful of multi-millionaires, someone with the courage to renounce their party's abhorrent past and lead them away from authoritarian attacks on civil liberties, unwinnable military conflicts and damaging micro-management and target-setting culture in the public sector then, quite frankly, I'm through with politics.


What Labour need to realise is that there is a huge realignment of British politics going on here, and I think that it will end up in England, at least, with two main political parties a la Democrats & Republicans, with the Lib Dem Orange people such as Clegg joining a centre right Tory party. Cameron would dearly love to get rid of the nutters in his party as did Labour with the Trots a few years back, and Clegg and his pals are a way of acheiving this.

Your analysis of Labour's needs is spot on. In fact, these weaknesses are what made me join Plaid Cymru in Wales. Labour has to realise that the type of statist response in terms of civil liberties, the public sector, where I work, and all manner of things, has had its day. Above all else, Labour needs to realise that it was actually the left wing/labour movement which were the original libertarians in our country, not the barking mad right wing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 08:51
What I don't understand, as an outsider, is why didn't this Clegg dude join with Labor if there is realignment going on.  Why wouldn't they choose to join labor to fight the conservatives, as opposed to helping the conservatives?

Then again, Cameron doesn't seem all that "right-wing", at least compared to Republicans.  I think Cameron would be a Democrat in the US. 

Perhaps the real story in the UK is that there is no real Right?  (Aside from a handful of purists here and there)  In all three of your main parties, are they not simply "shades of Left?"

Not stating any of this as fact, I'm just thinking out loud.  I don't know much more about Euro-politics than the media here tells us.....which ain't much!Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 09:28
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

What I don't understand, as an outsider, is why didn't this Clegg dude join with Labor if there is realignment going on.  Why wouldn't they choose to join labor to fight the conservatives, as opposed to helping the conservatives?


Clegg wanted power. Labour had been in government since 1997, with their popularity waning year on year. After Blair left and Gordon Brown was 'installed' as our new Prime Minister (no election, not even an internal leadership election within the party), Labour's support dwindled to the point where an election victory was extremely unlikely. Many had always assumed the Lib Dems had more in common with Labour on an ideological level, but Clegg had no interest in joining forces with an unpopular party and an almost universally disliked leader.

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Then again, Cameron doesn't seem all that "right-wing", at least compared to Republicans.  I think Cameron would be a Democrat in the US. 


He is a moderate within his party, and this has certainly been the key to his success, but he is a long long way from being a left-leaning politician. His economic agenda and stance on the role of the state is vehemently right wing.

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Perhaps the real story in the UK is that there is no real Right?  (Aside from a handful of purists here and there)  In all three of your main parties, are they not simply "shades of Left?"


Actually, the trouble seems to be that there is no real LEFT within the three main parties. During Labour's 13 years in power they quickly turned away from traditional left wing politics in favour of a staunchly centrist and, eventually, centre-right ideology. Meanwhile, after a string of shortlived and unsuccessful leaders, the Conservatives under David Cameron successfully moved towards occupying more or less identical territory. This is what led to many left-leaning voters (and one or two MPs) defecting to the Lib Dems, a party who had opposed the Iraq invasion and had generally played up their role as a left-leaning voice of dissent. Now, following Clegg's decision to unite with the Conservatives and abandon these leftist values Britain is left with a centre-right coalition government and a currently leaderless opposition party (Labour). Whether or not Labour return to their leftist roots or continue down this course of moderate, middle-ground, middle class mediocrity will depend on who they elect as their new leader. I'm not feeling very optimistic.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 09:32
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

What I don't understand, as an outsider, is why didn't this Clegg dude join with Labor if there is realignment going on.  Why wouldn't they choose to join labor to fight the conservatives, as opposed to helping the conservatives?

Then again, Cameron doesn't seem all that "right-wing", at least compared to Republicans.  I think Cameron would be a Democrat in the US. 

Perhaps the real story in the UK is that there is no real Right?  (Aside from a handful of purists here and there)  In all three of your main parties, are they not simply "shades of Left?"

Not stating any of this as fact, I'm just thinking out loud.  I don't know much more about Euro-politics than the media here tells us.....which ain't much!Wink


You could turn that the other way though, and state that from my Swedish viewpoint there are only shades of Right in US politics Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 09:36
Interesting indeed.  Thanks Trouser for the lesson! Clap

But if there is no real Left, how is it that you have such a generous welfare state?  Doesn't the UK accessibility to Health/Education/Welfare assistance rival that of Scandinavian social democracies?

Wouldn't that be nearly impossible without a healthy (and "real") Leftist share in your government?


Edited by Finnforest - September 18 2010 at 09:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 09:47
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Interesting indeed.  Thanks Trouser for the lesson! Clap

But if there is no real Left, how is it that you have such a generous welfare state?  Doesn't the UK accessibility to Health/Education/Welfare assistance rival that of Scandinavian social democracies?

Wouldn't that be nearly impossible without a healthy (and "real") Leftist share in your government?


These were established long ago; 1911 in the case of the welfare state and 1948 in the case of the NHS. Any government who seriously tried to scrap either of these would have a revolution on their hands.

The current government is already readying itself to slash benefits (allegedly in attempt to force people into work - speaking as someone who's been more or less unemployed for two years now, I can't quite see how that's going to work until they put some f**king effort into job creation) and is diverting money away from state education. The fact that bastions of public service like the NHS, BBC, state education etc. still remain is, in my opinion, a testament to the left-leaning nature of our society. This is why it baffles me that no mainstream politicians in the UK seem willing to stand up for left wing principles any more.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 09:53
So, fair to say that you have a population very comfortable with the generous social systems, but a political class who are contemptuous of this (to varying degrees) and insistent that the degree of Gov. social expenditure cannot be sustained, due to population/aging dynamics (too few babies, too many oldsters)?

They want to "reform" the system to be more lean, while the public rejects this?   It would seem a ripe recipe for the emergence of a true Leftist.   Don't you have a Green Party?   In the US the Greens represent the most fervent Left. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 09:53
Originally posted by Trouserpress Trouserpress wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Interesting indeed.  Thanks Trouser for the lesson! Clap

But if there is no real Left, how is it that you have such a generous welfare state?  Doesn't the UK accessibility to Health/Education/Welfare assistance rival that of Scandinavian social democracies?

Wouldn't that be nearly impossible without a healthy (and "real") Leftist share in your government?


These were established long ago; 1911 in the case of the welfare state and 1948 in the case of the NHS. Any government who seriously tried to scrap either of these would have a revolution on their hands.

The current government is already readying itself to slash benefits (allegedly in attempt to force people into work - speaking as someone who's been more or less unemployed for two years now, I can't quite see how that's going to work until they put some f**king effort into job creation) and is diverting money away from state education. The fact that bastions of public service like the NHS, BBC, state education etc. still remain is, in my opinion, a testament to the left-leaning nature of our society. This is why it baffles me that no mainstream politicians in the UK seem willing to stand up for left wing principles any more.


Indeed. I think triangulating for the political middle-ground is as much a phenomena in the UK as it is here in Sweden. But here that is true for both the Right and the Left (the Left more or less silently accepts tax cuts from the Right, the Right speaks about building the best welfare state in the world)

However, there are obvious risks. Populist ideas tend to sneak in to the debate in such a climate and the political debate becomes deflated and anaemic, a sort of culture of agreement, where progressive and dissenting forces find it hard to voice their opinion. Political vision suffers so that political stability can prosper.     


Edited by LinusW - September 18 2010 at 09:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 09:56
UK parties are left when compared to the two US parties, though obviously not as left as David, Steve and myself would be happy with. Greens in this country are left-ish, but have some weird and incompatible ideas on science, technology and manufacturing that makes them unattractive to most voters.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 09:59
Originally posted by Trouserpress Trouserpress wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

What I don't understand, as an outsider, is why didn't this Clegg dude join with Labor if there is realignment going on.  Why wouldn't they choose to join labor to fight the conservatives, as opposed to helping the conservatives?


Clegg wanted power. Labour had been in government since 1997, with their popularity waning year on year. After Blair left and Gordon Brown was 'installed' as our new Prime Minister (no election, not even an internal leadership election within the party), Labour's support dwindled to the point where an election victory was extremely unlikely. Many had always assumed the Lib Dems had more in common with Labour on an ideological level, but Clegg had no interest in joining forces with an unpopular party and an almost universally disliked leader.

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Then again, Cameron doesn't seem all that "right-wing", at least compared to Republicans.  I think Cameron would be a Democrat in the US. 


He is a moderate within his party, and this has certainly been the key to his success, but he is a long long way from being a left-leaning politician. His economic agenda and stance on the role of the state is vehemently right wing.

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Perhaps the real story in the UK is that there is no real Right?  (Aside from a handful of purists here and there)  In all three of your main parties, are they not simply "shades of Left?"


Actually, the trouble seems to be that there is no real LEFT within the three main parties. During Labour's 13 years in power they quickly turned away from traditional left wing politics in favour of a staunchly centrist and, eventually, centre-right ideology. Meanwhile, after a string of shortlived and unsuccessful leaders, the Conservatives under David Cameron successfully moved towards occupying more or less identical territory. This is what led to many left-leaning voters (and one or two MPs) defecting to the Lib Dems, a party who had opposed the Iraq invasion and had generally played up their role as a left-leaning voice of dissent. Now, following Clegg's decision to unite with the Conservatives and abandon these leftist values Britain is left with a centre-right coalition government and a currently leaderless opposition party (Labour). Whether or not Labour return to their leftist roots or continue down this course of moderate, middle-ground, middle class mediocrity will depend on who they elect as their new leader. I'm not feeling very optimistic.


Some interesting points raised here certainly. I think you know full well your conclusions are embedded in your question. Whether you like it or not, a left wing party with a traditional socialist agenda became unelectable in the UK circa 1983. (You could even argue that for the majority of Europe to boot)
Neil Kinnock and John Smith  were keenly aware of this shift in the groundswell of the electorate and sought to air-brush any overtly socialist principles out of their party's manifesto accordingly. Naturally, this met with stiff resistance from a trade union movement that Labour has always feared alienating due to their valuable buttressing support. I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing but at least give credit to Kinnock, Smith and Blair for realising 'middle class mediocrity' just might represent the ceiling for most of the working class voters in the UK.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 10:01
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

UK parties are left when compared to the two US parties, though obviously not as left as David, Steve and myself would be happy with. Greens in this country are left-ish, but have some weird and incompatible ideas on science, technology and manufacturing that makes them unattractive to most voters.


Oooh, please expand on this.  As a former US Green, what is it about the UK Greens that makes you say that.  I'm curious why the party I know from here is not wildly more popular in Europe, they seem to embody the progressive values I hear are desired by many of you.  So I'm curious about the bolded.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 10:02
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:



Indeed. I think triangulating for the political middle-ground is as much a phenomena in the UK as it is here in Sweden. But here that is true for both the Right and the Left (the Left more or less silently accepts tax cuts from the Right, the Right speaks about building the best welfare state in the world)

However, there are obvious risks. Populist ideas tend to sneak in to the debate in such a climate and the political debate becomes deflated and anaemic, a sort of culture of agreement, where progressive and dissenting forces find it hard to voice their opinion. Political vision suffers so that political stability can prosper.     


Very well put. In the UK's case at least, I think we should also acknowledge the role of a largely right wing press. One of the Labour leadership candidates (one who is, sadly, very unlikely to win) talked despairingly in a recent interview about Gordon Brown's constant attempts to please readers of the Daily Mail (a comically right wing populist paper). By paying disproportionate attention to the media, politicians grant the media disproportionate power.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 10:13
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

UK parties are left when compared to the two US parties, though obviously not as left as David, Steve and myself would be happy with. Greens in this country are left-ish, but have some weird and incompatible ideas on science, technology and manufacturing that makes them unattractive to most voters.


Oooh, please expand on this.  As a former US Green, what is it about the UK Greens that makes you say that.  I'm curious why the party I know from here is not wildly more popular in Europe, they seem to embody the progressive values I hear are desired by many of you.  So I'm curious about the bolded.


I've flirted with voting green in the past but there are definite barriers. For example, whilst perusing their manifesto during the last European elections I noticed a proposal to ban all zoos. Now, as a committed vegetarian, ardent animal lover and advocate of animal welfare I'd be the first to recognise the cruelty of keeping animals in captivity, especially in unsuitable climates and conditions. This could be addressed through tighter regulation, and the EU is the perfect body to shape such legislation. But to simply call for a blanket ban shows a total naivety, and fails to acknowledge the important roles zoos play in conservation and education.

Similarly unscientific and blinkered policies on GM foods, homepathic/alternative medicine and the like detract substantially from their often excellent environmental and social policies.

The other major barrier for a lot of would-be voters is our electoral system, which makes it almost impossible for a minority candidate to gain power.
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