Don't Ask, Don't Tell Deemed Unconstitutional

jplanet wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: jplanet wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: jplanet wrote: Epignosis wrote: I'm off to bed, but here's a question: If you support gay marriage, do you support polygamous marriages, group marriages, and/or incestuous marriage?  Why or why not? The fact that you have no clue how insulting and condescending that is is unfathomable. The first two scenarios are not even between two consenting adults, and there is no such thing as a sexuality that only allows someone to fall in love with a relative. You're just as bigoted as you're claiming Rob to be. You're acting so high and mighty as a defender of people's rights, then you act as if polygamous marriages are any more objectionable. If Rob is being bigoted, then so are you, except you chose to include gay marriage in your accepted class of marriages which are worthy of recognition. Jesus Christ. Is your post a joke? Tell me it's a joke.  There's no joke. Rob's examples are classic homophobic rhetoric designed to scare people away from gay marriage, so they are examples that must be refuted.  When people were arguing against interracial marriage, they used the same reasoning, so there is historical precedent in the use of those examples to suppress the rights of others. And even though I take offense at Rob's posts, I am still respectful to him. There is no need to refer to my posts as a joke. Agree with me or disagree with me. Give me information to see another point of view. Be intelligent. But don't try to bully me and call what I have to say a joke. Explain yourself then. Why shouldn't three people decide that they want to enter into marriage together? Why can't a brother and sister do the same? What makes gays so special that they're entitled to marriage, but two people who are related are not? Your post is full of classic homophobic rhetoric just applied to different forms of marriage. You know, I thought about this and you're absolutely right. Bring on the group and incestuous marriage! Although, polygamists and incestuous couples are not being beaten in the streets or strung up on fences while fighting for the right, but absolutely, bring it on!

rushfan4 wrote: The problem with Polygamy is the "consenting adult" portion of it.

Indeed.  It doesn't bother me as long as it is between consenting adults and women are allowed to have multiple husbands.  Of course this rarely if ever happens in practice and often the wives are non-consenting children.

The T wrote: jplanet wrote:   Epignosis wrote: ... Honestly, I spend very little of my time thinking about gay people. All I ask is that what little time you do think of them, is to think of them as equals. . Even better: stop even considering you're thinking on gay people as if they were some different kind of people.  If you spend time thinking about people, then some of that people can be gay, and that's irrelevant. Otherwise you just don't believe gays and hetero people are the same...

I tried that in Micah asked about good female comedians.  Here's what happened:

The T wrote: Epignosis wrote: Her: In a thread were the inferiority of female comedians versus male comedians  is discussed, you had to mention the one lesbian comedian...  I like her a lot. She's good. But I also like Wanda Sykes (though I see why Rob and others may dislike her...)

Epignosis wrote: ... Speaking of axiomatic, being black isn't sinful (according to my religion).  Homosexuality is. ...

First of all, homosexuality, as an orientation, even in its strictest Biblical interpretation, is not a sin. At best, it comes down to the specific sexual acts, but even that is debated to this day by the most knowledgeable Biblical scholars, as Levtican Laws observed by Christians are pretty much cherry-picked (Christian wives are not required to marry their husband's brother if their husband dies before fathering children - and this is literally stated in the same paragraph in Leviticus regarding homosexuality), and the reference in Romans is easily attributed to the growing number of early Christians who began converting to Greek Paganism, the rituals of which involved acts of homosexuality in the temples themselves.

Unless you belong to a very unique new version of Christianity, the essence of Christianity is the belief that there is not a single one of us who is not a sinner. And you cannot isolate the specific act of sex , because you cannot assume that any particular gay married couple is even having sex, just as many hetero married couples are not sexually active for myriad reasons.

The acts of caring for each other when sick, going to the shelter to adopt a kitten, or raise a child together, are the actions which define a committed, lasting relationship, and which marriage fosters.

Ironic that it is perfectly legal for people to have promiscuous gay sex, march in parades with car batteries attached to their nipples, yet so-called proponents of morality seek to limit people's ability to settle down, live decent lives and raise a family?

And, even if you dismiss all of that, since when is what a particular religion views as a sin a guideline for secular law? Most sins are perfectly legal - and some of the most detestable sins of greed and vanity are perpetuated in day-to-day corporations, and the right to commit those sins is defended to the hilt by the same conservative demographic that claims gay marriage is a sin and should remain outlawed.


Edited by jplanet - September 12 2010 at 14:12

What a great, respectful post, Rob! Come to think of it, you always seem to come around. The above post is a far cry from the earlier comments concerned about showering with dudes, or the offensive mantra that gay people already have the same rights.

Stick with the kind of stuff you just wrote above - earlier posts seemed to quote popular phrases that get tossed around carelessly, but the above post shows you as an independent thinker who takes time to articulate very nicely...That's the kind of approach that makes me feel respectful of views that are quite different from my own...

Rock on, man! And you are a kick-ass musician as well, and I will continue to support you also!

And we are in absolute agreement - I don't even like having to pee next to other people, let alone shower, regardless of orientation - who the hell decided that only guys have to do sh*t like that without any privacy? Are shower curtains and dividers between urinals really that f***ing expensive?




Edited by jplanet - September 12 2010 at 18:04

Epignosis wrote: JLocke wrote:   Epignosis wrote:   So I could be a Christian and play music.  In your analogy, I just couldn't tell people that I'm a Christian. And, you would be okay with that?  My actions should express it.  They don't always, but they should. However, to express being gay without words, well...how do you do that?

hahahhahaha i think theres a reeeaaaally good answer to that question

Edited by The T - September 12 2010 at 18:53

You really have some patience (and good memory) digging up some OLD threads... (or do you have a special place in your hard drive called "other people's posts I might use later to win arguments"?)

^I have thought of replies to comments in the middle of... ehem... procreational acts... now beat that...