Don't Ask, Don't Tell Deemed Unconstitutional

The T wrote: JLocke wrote:   Epignosis wrote:  You don't see me having parades about being in the same heterosexual relationship for life, do you?  Well, you never HAD to, did you? Your rights to be straight anywhere you go haven't been limited or threatened by backward laws or public discrimination, have they? Apparently there has never been discrimination against homosexuals. Apparently they should be as comfortable about their rights' history about straight people. You don't hold parades for being heterosexual because that's something that society has never made you be ashamed of. If by some strange event society suddenly started seeing christianism as wrong and abnormal, I'm sure you'll be holding parades to defend your right.

I'm a conservative Christian.  Society tries to make me feel ashamed about that all the time.

 

Epignosis wrote: I know where you are coming from.  I disagree with you.  Playing guitar and being an atheist have nothing to do with one another.  Showering and sleeping with people of the same sex, among other things, have something to do with the military. Another question that was conveniently ignored:  In the military, should men and women shower together?  Why or why not?

You completely skimmed over the point I was trying to make. I already admitted in the same post that my scenario was not an accurate equivalent from the military's perspective. But can we just pretend for a moment that my proposition was real? And somehow, it WAS a detriment for a musician to be religious? How would that make you feel? To know that you had to either never publicly admit to your belief in God, or you wouldn't be able to do something you love, like play music? Even if it could be seen as something completely practical, would you enjoy being forced into such a position? You know you wouldn't. 

Epignosis wrote: The T wrote: JLocke wrote:   Epignosis wrote:  You don't see me having parades about being in the same heterosexual relationship for life, do you?  Well, you never HAD to, did you? Your rights to be straight anywhere you go haven't been limited or threatened by backward laws or public discrimination, have they? Apparently there has never been discrimination against homosexuals. Apparently they should be as comfortable about their rights' history about straight people. You don't hold parades for being heterosexual because that's something that society has never made you be ashamed of. If by some strange event society suddenly started seeing christianism as wrong and abnormal, I'm sure you'll be holding parades to defend your right. I'm a conservative Christian.  Society tries to make me feel ashamed about that all the time.

A bit like gays in the military? Society wrong on both counts i guess.

Epignosis wrote: WalterDigsTunes wrote: JLocke wrote:   Epignosis wrote:   You don't see me having parades about being in the same heterosexual relationship for life, do you?  Well, you never HAD to, did you? Your rights to be straight anywhere you go haven't been limited or threatened by backward laws or public discrimination, have they? Maybe you haven't noticed, but being gay hasn't always been accepted. If I belonged to a long-unjustly-treated minority, I'd sure as hell put some extra importance on the very aspect of myself that caused all the fuss.  It's difficult for individuals with privilege and a stake in the hegemonic model to even begin to comprehend the struggle of the marginalized. The reason Epignosis isn't having parades lies in the fact that everything around him already celebrates and supports the model he belong to; parades would be redundant. Actually, Walter (thank you for your post 1989 psychoanalysis), I don't have parades because I f**king hate crowds.

Say "NO!" to new music and say "NO!" to oppressive privilege.

There's a real danger here that some are confusing a chosen belief system and a behaviour trait?

I'm not even sure if choice is applicable to sexual attraction.

The reverse side of the coin for a straights only army would be putting gay men in female prisons.

And why is a straights only military considered such a shoo-in - why not a Pink Military?

There also must be millions of straight females in the army who work alongside straight males and this doesn't seem to be a problem (though they ain't in the front line granted)

JLocke wrote:   Epignosis wrote: I know where you are coming from.  I disagree with you.  Playing guitar and being an atheist have nothing to do with one another.  Showering and sleeping with people of the same sex, among other things, have something to do with the military. Another question that was conveniently ignored:  In the military, should men and women shower together?  Why or why not?  You completely skimmed over the point I was trying to make. I already admitted in the same post that my scenario was not an accurate equivalent from the military's perspective. But can we just pretend for a moment that my proposition was real? And somehow, it WAS a detriment for a musician to be religious? How would that make you feel? To know that you had to either never publicly admit to your belief in God, or you wouldn't be able to do something you love, like play music? Even if it could be seen as something completely practical, would you enjoy being forced into such a position? You know you wouldn't.

No, we can't pretend that.  It doesn't address the question.  Gays can be in the military.  Being gay in the military doesn't cause problems.  Discussing your gayness in the military is apparently the problem.

So I could be a Christian and play music.  In your analogy, I just couldn't tell people that I'm a Christian.

Ah, there's five of you and one of me.  And it's one in the morning here.  I know I can't keep up with this. 

I probably spent more time than I should have listening to folks with zero US military experience criticizing US military policies.  If you sign up, you agree to things.  If you don't like those things, don't sign up.  That's all I'm saying.

Otherwise have a parade or something.  I'm off to bed. 

Epignosis wrote: Ah, there's five of you and one of me.  And it's one in the morning here.  I know I can't keep up with this.  I probably spent more time than I should have listening to folks with zero US military experience criticizing US military policies.  If you sign up, you agree to things.  If you don't like those things, don't sign up.  That's all I'm saying. Otherwise have a parade or something.  I'm off to bed.

Disagreement in a democratic society? Oh, right; it's the military. They can dictate their own terms, regardless of what civilian officials in the judicial branch decree.

""Did you know religious soldiers aren't allowed to proselytize while they are deployed?  Should they be allowed to be who they are in the course of military duty?"

No, but the analogy does not work well for me. The question would be, should they be able to say that they are Christian and should others be able to ask if they are? If the issue was about gays not being allowed to sodomize (or better, try to convert people to homosexuality or introduce soldiers to a homosexual lifestyle) during the course of military duty, then I would find it more relevant.

As for men and women in the military showering (and sleeping) together, I'm all for it. Make love AND war.


Edited by Logan - September 11 2010 at 00:19

WalterDigsTunes wrote: Epignosis wrote: WalterDigsTunes wrote: Epignosis wrote: Ah, there's five of you and one of me.  And it's one in the morning here.  I know I can't keep up with this.  I probably spent more time than I should have listening to folks with zero US military experience criticizing US military policies.  If you sign up, you agree to things.  If you don't like those things, don't sign up.  That's all I'm saying. Otherwise have a parade or something.  I'm off to bed.  Disagreement in a democratic society? Oh, right; it's the military. They can dictate their own terms, regardless of what civilian officials in the judicial branch decree. You missed my very first post, apparently. Apparently the military can do what it wants, eh? Let's ask our friends in other countries how this can turn out.

I assume paying attention is a post-1989 skill, hmm?

Off to bed now.