Magma´s ideology controversy. Read this!

toroddfuglesteg wrote: Your position here, which is voicing views which is likely to deprive another human being for his means of living based on unverifiable rumors and hearsay, is in fact in the same moral bracket as the one you are accusing Vander of. It is in fact fascism in a another word.

James wrote: Is he not allowed to make a living then?  He makes music (none of which really suggests he's a Fascist).  He's not making money by having Nazi-rallies, pamphleting, writing Fascist-propaganda. Albert Speer was an Architect.  He was a member of the Nazi Party.  He also happened to survive beyond the Nuremberg rallies.  Would you boycott visiting all his buildings if he was still alive today? Would you have avoided Tempelhof because it's rebuilt terminal was built for the NSDAP? There's Fascism, Communism and other so-called bad things around us even now.  You cannot avoid it all. Live with it.

James wrote: It's not confusing.  You did basically say (in your previous post) though that you want to deny him a living from making music because of alleged and unsubstantiated (and potentially libellous) views. Thankfully you have corrected yourself.

Edited by 40footwolf - September 10 2010 at 02:36

Bollocks, 40footwolf. Free market is something totally different again.

Do you have any hard evidence linking Vander to fascism ? Nope. 

Acting on rumors and then distributing them is fascism in the sense that you are not giving the accused any level of doubts, reason and human rights. There is evidence which seriously doubts that Vander has anything to do with fascism. But you are totally disregarding them in your discrediting of another human being based on rumors. 

Ever heard about Holocaust, 40footwolf ? What do you think you are doing when you go public with unsubstantiated rumors ?  

Feel free not to buy any Magma albums. That is your personal preference. I don't buy any pop albums either. But I am honest enough to admit that I don't like pop, in fact can't stand pop music based on the music itself. I think that is a respectable view.   

James wrote: I know that. Bear in mind there are other people in Magma though who are trying to make a living. Not that I am going to change your opinion and neither am I trying to.  I'm just saying that you're boycotting a band on unsubstantiated rumours.

toroddfuglesteg wrote: Bollocks, 40footwolf. Free market is something totally different again. Do you have any hard evidence linking Vander to fascism ? Nope.  Acting on rumors and then distributing them is fascism in the sense that you are not giving the accused any level of doubts, reason and human rights. There is evidence which seriously doubts that Vander has anything to do with fascism. But you are totally disregarding them in your discrediting of another human being based on rumors.  Ever heard about Holocaust, 40footwolf ? What do you think you are doing when you go public with unsubstantiated rumors ?   Feel free not to buy any Magma albums. That is your personal preference. I don't buy any pop albums either. But I am honest enough to admit that I don't like pop, in fact can't stand pop music based on the music itself. I think that is a respectable view.

This would've been a clearer way to sum up my point:

The music is good. I can still enjoy it.
We do that with LOTS of things (not only music) enjoying while saying "yeah I hate them though"
What about a band who's communist? No objections? They just have far out beliefs? Why are they not equated with Mao or Stalin? A fascist is worse then a communist? Is it because of Hitler?

IMHO there's no proof of this, and again if so...the music is good.
Sorry but if you enjoy something, you enjoy it.
Christian Vander can believe all Brian's from NJ should be killed.
Hope to god he doesn't find me, but Magma still put out some great music!


Edited by JJLehto - September 10 2010 at 02:50

Speaking of unsubstantiated rumour I've just recalled the illustrations in P.F.M's Passpartu CD cover. Now given that this was the 1970s and terrorism (Italian Red Brigade, Baader meinhof etc) was huge then as it still is though with different lots I always wondered but found no info on whether P.F.M. did or did not support such activity .

Regrettably my  Italian is only of the phrase book variety - I don't know what the album is about. I have no wish to hold judgment on PFM (whom I like alot) but would appreciate someone shedding light on what Passpartu is about.

What is the difference between substantiated rumour and unsubstantiated rumour? How does one get to the former fromt he latter.

P.S. My understanding of fascism is an imposition of certain belief codes on others. Fascists however, will accept anyone who converts. Nazis on the other hand have less scruple and insist on holocausts and ethnic "cleansing." They have no tolerance, fascists have some.

If public artists are going to state political beliefs or present an art form based on this then a right of reply is requested. Clarification if you will. As sopposed to blind acceptance. This is serious stuff (I was unaware of the Matching Mole) but to me the P.F.M. booklet (anyone else have a copy of this sunny and delightful and underrated album?
If there's nothing in it, fine. If it's artists reflecting their environments fine.

The thing is that most of my knowledge of European art rock music began with Web data. Europe has an unbelievably convoluted and tortous political history (the last 1000 years) which undoubtedly surfaces in artisitc expression albeit the more contemporary influences being more prevalent in their work.

 I do not want to make judgments but I do rerally want to know what it's all about.

Or Vander just doesn't care enough to do so

I made sure to check the sources. They're legit.