Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?

^ I think that this is a major problem here - people are constantly picking up some isolated statements and then blow them out of proportion. And of course I include myself here. My conclusion is that I'll try to get side-tracked less often and to stop when we reach arguments that a) have nothing to do with Theism vs. Atheism and b) involve arguments that are difficult to verify without spending serious time in a library.

The simplest argument against Theism: It's silly!

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ Sure - some of them, and to varying extents. That's why I said that I had a list of people. Just checking. Seemed strange to single out Catholics when such a significant portion of the clergy were murdered and imprisoned for opposing Nazi rule.  I said "Some Christians tried to stop him" - I don't see how that can be called "single out". And of course many priests were murdered by the Nazis. But they weren't murdered because they were religious, but because they opposed the regime.   You said not far down the list you blame Christian leaders for not opposing Hitler. So you singled them out.

So - by putting them on a list with several people - a potentially very long list - I am singling them out?

Equality wrote:   Then I asked the above question.   Yes I'm not saying they were murdered for their faith, but for their opposition of the regime. That was the exact point I was trying to make. I found your comment strange because so many were murdered for opposing the government.

Those leaders who I put on the list for endorsing his persecution of the Jews are certainly not the ones who were murdered for opposing it. I'll happily add Atheists to that list if they had any part in his regime and would have had means to oppose it.

Well, seems like urban myth to me ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst-Wessel-Lied

The sites you found don't say what their sources are for the lyrics, nor do they say what the original German lyrics are, or where they can be looked up.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 08 2010 at 13:32

Wow.... I've been mostly away from here over the past 20 months, but Iván and Mike are still discussing the same topic. Amazing! Maybe they should be in a subgenre of their own? 

Mr ProgFreak wrote: As a side note: None of these side-tracking discussions has anything to do with Theism vs. Atheism. Not that I would mind them (since they're interesting), but as far as the actual question is concerned they're excessive and ultimately pointless.

I found it an interesting distraction, but not sure it means anything - evil men do evil things regardless of political, religious or ideological persuasion and will use whatever justification they can to hide their prejudices behind.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: See the response to Trademark. Those books are freely available and AFAIK nobody contests their validity. I just don't have any reason to assume that Hitler at some point didn't think of himself as a Christian anymore.   Isn't it enough for you that: He named Ludwig Muller as the "Reich Priest" and head of the German Church He personally composed his youth marching song: We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,  Away with incense and Holy Water, The Church can go hang for all we care, The Swastika brings salvation on Earth He joined pagan and occultist movements sanctioned by the Pope in the "Index Liborium Prohibitorium" with excomunixcation  Please Mike, read history, not conspiracy panflets. Iván

So why did the Pope not excommunicate him? Many of these things happened at a time where there was no perceivable threat. Besides, I don't know where you got those lyrics from - but I looked up Horst Wessel and can't find any lyrics which are even remotely similar to what you posted here.

Vibrationbaby wrote: This has got to be the longest thread in the site's history and it's not even about progressive rock . Let's se if we can bring it 125.

Vibrationbaby wrote: This has got to be the longest thread in the site's history and it's not even about progressive rock . Let's se if we can bring it 125.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: See the response to Trademark. Those books are freely available and AFAIK nobody contests their validity. I just don't have any reason to assume that Hitler at some point didn't think of himself as a Christian anymore.

1. He named Ludwig Muller as the "Reich Priest" and head of the German Church
2. He personally composed his youth marching song:
   We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
    Away with incense and Holy Water,
   The Church can go hang for all we care,
   The Swastika brings salvation on Earth
3. He joined pagan and occultist movements sanctioned by the Pope in the "Index Liborium Prohibitorium" with excomunixcation

 Please Mike, read history, not conspiracy panflets.

 

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Ironically the point of view that Atheism and Communism are somehow inseparably linked arose in the McCarthy era (Christianity/Democracy vs. Atheism/Communism).

1. Peruvian Priest Gustavo Gutierrez, founder of he Liberation Theiory, a communist oriented interpretation of he scriptures
2. Ernesto Cardenal, Minister of Culture of "FrenteSandinista de Liberación Nacional" in Nicaragua of clear Marxist orientation

Of course Ernesto Cardenal was admonished by the Poppe in public and in front of his Sandinist leaders in the Managua airport: