Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?

The T wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: The T wrote: Textbook wrote: T: I don't know what to say to you other than that you're just wrong. I simply despise religion. But you sound angry. You say religious people are blind, foolish, etc etc etc yet you can't say it without using mockery and trying to make them look like idiots. So that, instead of fortifying your position (I'm agnostic too, probably an atheist since I really doubt god exists) just weakens it. I don't like that attitude because it hurts atheism and makes us all look like arrogant people incapable of tolerating others' beliefs. That's why I react.  By that definition you are an Atheist - albeit a closet Atheist, since for some reason you seem to not be able to commit. I guess it's because of the baggage that the word carries - like for example the straw man argument that Iván keeps promoting (Atheism = Communism = Fascism = Religious Persecution = Mass Murder). To commit to what? To what "cause"? To a label? I doubt. That's all I know. You are interested in labels and commitment, go ahead. I don't know anything. I tend to think god doesn't exist. I just can't be sure. I'm not that big you know....

I'm just pointing out that you keep misunderstanding the definition of "Atheism". If you think that it entails "being sure that god doesn't exist", then you're mistaken.

The T wrote: If you want to assign me a particular label, I'd probably be in the lighter side of atheism.. I don't remember the names.... I'm not a "closet" atheist (I tell anyone who asks me that I don't believe in the existence of god). Specially on an internet forum where I don't know nobody and probably never will meet anybody... What would be the point on being "closeted" here??

I simply meant that for some reason you don't seem to like to use the label "Atheist".

shockedjazz wrote: To say that comunism doesnt have anything to do with atheism is......lets say for the sake of elegance not correct. It comes from the crisis of hegelian system caused by rising tide osf atheism introducted by natural sciencies views on cosmology.......but aplied to politics and economics ( Marx takes Feurbach critic and religion and says: "Thats not even close"...or more acurately is not enough to make the sacred familiy a secular one but to destroy the secular one). While i find Marx and some of the first marxist very interesting......what  some psychopaths made of it in xx century is unbareable.....as a one of my teachers said If Marx resurrected in 1940 or 1960 the first thing he would said would be "im not marxist". But it all was raised in this wave of atheism , naturalism, atheism......wich by the way was different but as strong in the western world....especially due to darwinsm. I find it funny ( to say something) that people today takes Darwin as a cathecism, but at the same time they ignore the fact of the real procedence of Nazi ideology.....it was applied darwinism, the so called social darwinism of Spencer and others.....in fact the first country to aprove eugenics laws was USA not Germany!!!! And the myth of Darwin not wanting to have anything to do with social darwinism is utterly false....he aproved that!! i can find the quote or text if needed. Dawkins is keeping that trend nowadays with its egoist gen theory......so as you can imagine my opinion is, ehem, lets say, for the sake of politeness, that is a non ethical person and his theory, ehem, not very good in scientific terms.   Also a salute to the BoldJeans

What an appalling misrepresentation of science. I dare you to produce those quotes.

^ There are private letters - among other documents - which show that he did not lose the Catholic faith, at least as far as I know he never said anything to that effect, and he was never excommunicated by the church. When you also take into account that throughout history Christian churches had been persecuting Jews (the evil "Christ killers") - I find it hard to overlook all this and blame the holocaust on Paganism. I don't blame it, in all of its atrocities, on Christianity either. First and foremost I blame it on Hitler, but not far down the list I blame it on the Christian leaders who did nothing to stop him. Some Christians tried to stop him, and surely there were many priests among them, but I attribute that to secular morality, not to Christian doctrine.

^ Sure - some of them, and to varying extents. That's why I said that I had a list of people.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ Sure - some of them, and to varying extents. That's why I said that I had a list of people.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: I wish you could be honest just once about this. The point is that you keep mentioning these regimes as arguments against Atheism. In doing so, you draw a connection between Atheism and the atrocities committed by these evil regimes.

1. USSR
2. Cambodia
3. China
4. Cuba
5. Mexico partiallu, because they only placed limits to the autonomy of the Church
6. Etc

A simple question and a simple answer, if they were also communists (except Mexico), that's another issue.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 08 2010 at 10:38

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ Sure - some of them, and to varying extents. That's why I said that I had a list of people.

My biggest test of faith comes down to these type of events - no divine intervention

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ Sure - some of them, and to varying extents. That's why I said that I had a list of people. Just checking. Seemed strange to single out Catholics when such a significant portion of the clergy were murdered and imprisoned for opposing Nazi rule.

I said "Some Christians tried to stop him" - I don't see how that can be called "single out". And of course many priests were murdered by the Nazis. But they weren't murdered because they were religious, but because they opposed the regime.

Trademark wrote: "There are private letters - among other documents - which show that he did not lose the Catholic faith" What an appalling misrepresentation of history. I dare you to produce those quotes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Letters_and_Notes

Feel free to dig through those letters, if you have the time.

Trademark wrote: "^ Sure - some of them, and to varying extents. That's why I said that I had a list of people. The ghost of Joe McCarthy lives on.   Careful Mike your paranoia is showing.  But then, sometimes conspiracy theories aren't just theories.

Ironically the point of view that Atheism and Communism are somehow inseparably linked arose in the McCarthy era (Christianity/Democracy vs. Atheism/Communism).

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Ironically the point of view that Atheism and Communism are somehow inseparably linked arose in the McCarthy era (Christianity/Democracy vs. Atheism/Communism).

1. Peruvian Priest Gustavo Gutierrez, founder of he Liberation Theiory, a communist oriented interpretation of he scriptures
2. Ernesto Cardenal, Minister of Culture of "FrenteSandinista de Liberación Nacional" in Nicaragua of clear Marxist orientation

Of course Ernesto Cardenal was admonished by the Poppe in public and in front of his Sandinist leaders in the Managua airport: