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Joined: October 31 2006
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Posted: September 05 2010 at 08:54
friso wrote:
fuxi wrote:
friso wrote:
Ok. They stole music and now you want us to say hip-hip is innovative, or has some quality? This is hard to understand.
There's too much empty rage here against hip-hop. I'm not exactly an admirer of the genre (the only hip-hop album I ever bought was the one by the Fugees, if that counts!) but I can tell that many hip-hop tracks are MASSIVELY entertaining. If I were a teenager looking for thrills, I'd have hip-hop tracks on my ipod too!
Middle-aged prog fans raging against rap remind me of my grandparents informing me that comic strips are inferior to "real" novels.
(And I'm writing these things as a fifty year old.)
I'm twenty-one and I just finished my teenage years. I've always disliked the 'status'-element of the songs, the fact it is music without any instruments played, the negative attention of the rappers, the self-pity, the 'social criticism' by rappers who are villains themselves, etc. Sounding cool is not enough. I want to hear art.
I'm close to 50 too. I'm old enough to have had the possibility to see what the majors have always done against art. Since Jackson 5, through Bee Gees, then boy bands and so on.
It's not question of Comics and novels. It's question of music and something else. Hip-hop can be a different kind of art, maybe, but it doesn't have anything to do with music.
In addition I'm old enough to feel the urge to rush in listening all the things that I like, so I can't waste time on people dancing and speaking over a 4/4 tempo regardless the samples behind.
You have all the right to like it, but this site is not the right place.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13481
Posted: September 05 2010 at 08:57
I have no knowlegle or hip-hop or rap, since everytime I've tried to listen to it, I've found it quite boring. I don't understand why sampling someone else's music is a cool thing. Why not write your own music and sing/rap to it? Anyways, I must be old fashioned (and old too), but when an artist writes, arranges, orchestrates and performs his/her own music, then I will be interested. I'm sure some hip-hop artists write some of their material, but I haven't found something that appeals to me.
Joined: January 03 2010
Location: Lowell, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 3247
Posted: September 05 2010 at 09:02
Catcher10 wrote:
Problem I have with today's Hip Hop artists is they don't pay enough homage to the originators of hip hop....Its like they think they (todays artists) actually invented it. I don't listen to any of it, I truely feel its rubbish.
I feel the same way. It does nothing for me at all.
The other issue I have is the need for Hip-Hop artists to sample other people's work directly. It's one thing to be heavily influenced by other musicians and genres and write music that has similar qualities-we see a lot of that in prog. But to sample sections of another persons work and use it in your work is not talented and not original. It's just cutting and pasting, not originating.
One last comment-I know many artists, including prog bands, may slip in a riff from another band in a song. The difference-it's usually a quick one-time homage and then it's gone. Most of these Hip-Hop tracks have the sample repeating several times during a track-that's just a rip-off and not very original or talented IMHO.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
Posted: September 05 2010 at 10:51
In first place, what ELP does is not sampling, you can call it cover if you want, but musicians playing instruments is not the same as a guy with a recorder adding some basic percussion patterns to the music created and performed by others
In second place, I always wonder why people feel free to come to a Prog site ad say phrases like ELP is pompous crap or Rick Wakeman made that infamous Arthur on Ice, or even worst "All retro Prog is crap", and nobody says a word.
But if in the same Prog site somebody says that he/she doesn't like Rap or Hip Hop, we are middle age ignorant who don't accept that music has to change.
Yes, I'm middle age, but for me sampling is not making music,, it's stealing what real musicians did (As far as I know is very common not to pay royalties), but covers are a valid form of music, just listen guys like Manfred Mann with the Earth Band making a cover of "Blinded by the Light" by Bruce Springsteen (After paying royalties), they create a new, different song, which IMO is much better than the original.
Guys like Emerson had enough respect to go to Ginastera's house to play his Tocatta version before him and received the blessing of the composer who found the track amazing, before even daring to release Brain Salad Surgery,.
There's a huge difference, but at the end, we are free to like what we want and dislike what we want too, accept it.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 05 2010 at 19:28
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Posted: September 05 2010 at 13:58
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
In first place, what ELP does is not sampling, you can call it cover if you want, but musicians playing instruments is not the same as a guy with a recorder adding some basic percussion patterns to the music created and performed by others by others
In second place, I always wonder why people feel free to come to a Prog site ad say phrases like ELP is pompous crap or Rick Wakeman made that infamous Arthur on Ice, or even worst "All retro Prog is crap", and nobody says a word.
But if in the same Prog site somebody says that he/she doesn't like Rap or Hip Hop, we are middle age ignorant who don't accept that music has to change.
Yes, I'm middle age, but for me sampling is not making ,music,, it's staling what real musicians did, but covers are a valid form of music, just listen guys like Manfred Mann with the Earth Band making a cover of "Blinded by the Light" by Bruce Springsteen (After paying royalties),they create a new, different song, which IMO is much better than the original.
Guys like Emerson had enough respect to go to Ginastera's house to play his Tocatta version before him and received the blessing of the composer who found the track amazing, before even daring to release Brain Salad Surgery,.
There's a huge difference, but at the end, we are free to like what we want and dislike what we want too, accept it.
Iván
I couldn't agree more
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14573
Posted: September 05 2010 at 13:58
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
In first place, what ELP does is not sampling, you can call it cover if you want, but musicians playing instruments is not the same as a guy with a recorder adding some basic percussion patterns to the music created and performed by others by others
In second place, I always wonder why people feel free to come to a Prog site ad say phrases like ELP is pompous crap or Rick Wakeman made that infamous Arthur on Ice, or even worst "All retro Prog is crap", and nobody says a word.
But if in the same Prog site somebody says that he/she doesn't like Rap or Hip Hop, we are middle age ignorant who don't accept that music has to change.
Yes, I'm middle age, but for me sampling is not making ,music,, it's staling what real musicians did, but covers are a valid form of music, just listen guys like Manfred Mann with the Earth Band making a cover of "Blinded by the Light" by Bruce Springsteen (After paying royalties),they create a new, different song, which IMO is much better than the original.
Guys like Emerson had enough respect to go to Ginastera's house to play his Tocatta version before him and received the blessing of the composer who found the track amazing, before even daring to release Brain Salad Surgery,.
There's a huge difference, but at the end, we are free to like what we want and dislike what we want too, accept it.
Iván
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
Posted: September 05 2010 at 14:05
Nathaniel607 wrote:
I think sampling prog songs is all well and good, but can you link me to an interesting or proggy rap song that isn't so simply by virtue of sampling one?
The first one is kind of okay, but just repeats itself over and over and gets really boring. Also, the second one is pretty crap, he only sample one part and I really don't like what he did with it.
Sorry! Haven't convinced me yet lol.
Try the first track off Peter Gabriel's OVO
<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
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Points: 7028
Posted: September 05 2010 at 14:20
fuxi wrote:
friso wrote:
Ok. They stole music and now you want us to say hip-hip is innovative, or has some quality? This is hard to understand.
There's too much empty rage here against hip-hop. I'm not exactly an admirer of the genre (the only hip-hop album I ever bought was the one by the Fugees, if that counts!) but I can tell that many hip-hop tracks are MASSIVELY entertaining. If I were a teenager looking for thrills, I'd have hip-hop tracks on my ipod too!
Middle-aged prog fans raging against rap remind me of my grandparents informing me that comic strips are inferior to "real" novels.
(And I'm writing these things as a fifty year old.)
The problem is hip hop/Rap is now almost defunct. The crap the kids are hearing these days are real pseudo version of krumping and clowning and the crap like Outkast, Beyonce, Kylie Minogue, Pop Idol all sound the same. BUT I have seen some really good revived motown.
Check out some of Kanye West's stuff, pretty good!
<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
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Points: 14573
Posted: September 05 2010 at 14:47
Chris S wrote:
fuxi wrote:
friso wrote:
Ok. They stole music and now you want us to say hip-hip is innovative, or has some quality? This is hard to understand.
There's too much empty rage here against hip-hop. I'm not exactly an admirer of the genre (the only hip-hop album I ever bought was the one by the Fugees, if that counts!) but I can tell that many hip-hop tracks are MASSIVELY entertaining. If I were a teenager looking for thrills, I'd have hip-hop tracks on my ipod too!
Middle-aged prog fans raging against rap remind me of my grandparents informing me that comic strips are inferior to "real" novels.
(And I'm writing these things as a fifty year old.)
The problem is hip hop/Rap is now almost defunct. The crap the kids are hearing these days are real pseudo version of krumping and clowning and the crap like Outkast, Beyonce, Kylie Minogue, Pop Idol all sound the same. BUT I have seen some really good revived motown.
Check out some of Kanye West's stuff, pretty good!
The problem is hip hop/Rap is now almost defunct.
For you is a problem, for me it's a good thing. We just think differently, I dont think that I'm right and you are wrong. Only this is not hiphoparchives.com
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
It is nice that hip hop artists seem to be inspired by prog rock. Still I think that just sampling a song and repeating a sample all the time is not a prog rock criteria.
Of course, hip hop may be entertaining. The following I like, but only because it combines hip hop with traditional east european music.
I think there is Czech band Gipsy.cz who are Romani people doing Hip-hop music influenced by Romani music, which means Eastern influences as well.
1989 was the last great year in the history of music, so is it any wonder that the apogee of hip-hop is from 1989?
So you're admitting you haven't heard any hip hop since 1989?
EDIT: I'm going to sleep, but should the discussion, as it were, continue, I'd advise people who haven't listened to rap/hip-hop since the first Bush administration to refrain from speaking with any authority on the matter.
Why would I want new music when I can have real music?
That is maybe the most asinine thing I have ever read.
I'm still waiting for a concrete argument as to how hip-hop isn't "real" music. So far all I've heard is that it's all sampling(it isn't) and that it doesn't take any talent(it does). Nobody's saying you have to LIKE hip-hop but to say it isn't music is simply, patently, wrong. There isn't an argument to be made otherwise. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the genre and, honestly, music as a whole.
1989 was the last great year in the history of music, so is it any wonder that the apogee of hip-hop is from 1989?
So you're admitting you haven't heard any hip hop since 1989?
EDIT: I'm going to sleep, but should the discussion, as it were, continue, I'd advise people who haven't listened to rap/hip-hop since the first Bush administration to refrain from speaking with any authority on the matter.
I can say with authority that I have no interest whatsoever in "Hippety Hop".
Thank God at least one of you has a sense of humor about this. The snobbery and contemptuousness in this thread was starting to make my brain bleed.
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Posted: September 05 2010 at 19:11
40footwolf wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
40footwolf wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
1989 was the last great year in the history of music, so is it any wonder that the apogee of hip-hop is from 1989?
So you're admitting you haven't heard any hip hop since 1989?
EDIT: I'm going to sleep, but should the discussion, as it were, continue, I'd advise people who haven't listened to rap/hip-hop since the first Bush administration to refrain from speaking with any authority on the matter.
I can say with authority that I have no interest whatsoever in "Hippety Hop".
Thank God at least one of you has a sense of humor about this. The snobbery and contemptuousness in this thread was starting to make my brain bleed.
I really don't like it much at all.......BUT....no genre is completely unlikable (besides gangsta rap!)...so this what I DO like( don't know if any of this is hip hop but this I guess is rap in general)
for example outkast's hey ya switches between 2/4 & 4/4
nas's hip hop is dead is 3/4 i believe
and im positive theres more
and many producers in rap actually do play instruments. usually bass & synth/piano but real drums and electric/acoustic guitar is present in hip hop. maybe on the billboard top 100 but its out there
1989 was the last great year in the history of music, so is it any wonder that the apogee of hip-hop is from 1989?
So you're admitting you haven't heard any hip hop since 1989?
EDIT: I'm going to sleep, but should the discussion, as it were, continue, I'd advise people who haven't listened to rap/hip-hop since the first Bush administration to refrain from speaking with any authority on the matter.
I can say with authority that I have no interest whatsoever in "Hippety Hop".
Thank God at least one of you has a sense of humor about this. The snobbery and contemptuousness in this thread was starting to make my brain bleed.
I really don't like it much at all.......BUT....no genre is completely unlikable (besides gangsta rap!)...so this what I DO like( don't know if any of this is hip hop but this I guess is rap in general)
Eminem
Beastie Boys
De La Soul
I think thats about it.
Check out A Tribe Called Quest's The Low End Theory and Black Star's Mos Def and Talib Kweli are Black Star. Based on the bands you mentioned enjoying I think you would like those two a lot.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Posted: September 05 2010 at 19:25
40footwolf wrote:
Thank God at least one of you has a sense of humor about this. The snobbery and contemptuousness in this thread was starting to make my brain bleed.
The usual argument of snobbery.
Learn this, Prog Archives is a Progressive Rock site and most Progressive Rock listeners don't like Hip Hop, we joined this site to talk about a genre like Prog that is ignored by 99% of the people ouyt there, while there are probably thousands of Hip Hop sites.
We are not snobs, we know what we like and we are free to express our opinions, that's so true that people here butchers bands as Yes, Genesis, ELP, Triumvirat or virtuoso musicians as Wakeman that represent the reason why Prog Archives was created,
I haven't said that Hip Hop is crap, what i said is that sampling real musicians is creating nothing because all your videos are examples of sampling and I stand behind my opinion, the real artist creates musics, the sampler adds percussion patterns to what talented composers and performers created,
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Progressive rock music & Hip Hop?
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friso wrote:
