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Dean 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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 Posted: September 02 2010 at 10:58 |
 Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Had my own little anti-religion moment yesterday when I was given a poster advertising my school's Christian group to put up in my room. I refused to do it on the grounds that I don't believe a school should promote religions. This was accepted by the management and I've unwittingly triggered a snowball effect where more than half of the rest of the staff have done the same as me. But I don't feel that good about it because I'm sure this has hurt the feelings of the woman who runs the club. |
Did she tell you that she was offended by your decision? If so, she's the one who "threw the first stone" by asking you to put up that poster.
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This is evidence of how you reach wrong conclusions from nothing: You ask if she got offended and inmefdiately you claim she threw the first stone without waiting for the reply to your question.
In first place, asking a favour is not throwing a stone, she was not forcing Textbook or threatening him, she was only asking him (indirectly through the management) to support her activity, he could have said yes or no, he decided to say no and it was all OK.
Iván
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First of all: I said "if". Second of all, I probably shouldn't have said "threw the first stone", because I wasn't necessarily thinking of something violent. I simply meant that schools shouldn't engage in proselytizing. It's not necessarily illegal (it would be in some countries if it was a public school), but even then I still think it's wrong for any school to mix education and indoctrination.
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I think you are possibly overreacting - An extracurricular interest group for people who are interested in the subject and where attendance is not mandatory cannot be accused of proselytising.
I don't know how much separation between church and state there is in NZ (assuming "Textbook" is in NZ - I seem to recall that he is for some reason, appologies if he isn't) since they escaped imperial rule, my guess is none, or at least nothing legislative, so it wouldn't be "illegal" anyway.
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What?
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 10:59 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mike, what you are saying here is that none of both options can't be proven or disproven, and you conclude your position uis more plausible as I conclude about my position...This is perfect, you have y0ur point of ciew and I have mine.
What you shouldn't do is to attack us with so much ange5r and superiority when all you have toi support your claim is your opinion, being that what you say can't be proven.
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I think that many of my arguments are superior to many of your arguments - not because I am making them, but because they require much less faith than yours. For example, when I say that Catholicism and Islam are mutually exclusive, that's something you can't deny. I invite you to find similar arguments that challenge my position, which is the lack of a belief in gods. Until you do, I conclude that my position is more reasonable. Remember that we're talking about "beliefs" here, not absolute truths.
Iván wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Iván wrote:
Until today nobody is able to prove beyond doubt that God exists or doesn't exist, but some atheists shout that God is a fake, a fairytale, a lie, delusion, etc; when they have the absolutely same evidence than us about God's existence...Why can't we rach the opposite conclusion if haven't been proven false?
Iván |
They shout that they believe that God is a delusion. The term "strong Atheism" was created because the claim to know that there are no Gods goes beyond the typical Atheist position.
BTW: You can reach any conclusion you like. But that doesn't mean that it is equally likely as my conclusion. There are many logical arguments which suggest that my position is more plausible than yours. You can reject or ignore some of those arguments, which would make your conclusion more probable *from your point of view*, but it will still remain to be more probable *from my point of view*.
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I say the same to you...."You can reach any conclusion you like. But that doesn't mean that it is equally likely as my conclusion. There are many logical arguments which suggest that my position is more plausible than yours. You can reject or ignore some of those arguments, which would make your conclusion more probable *from your point of view*, but it will still remain to be more probable *from my point of view*."
And of course my logical conclusion is that God exists.
Iván
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Except that you haven't made any logical sound arguments. Personal faith, scripture, figures of authority that are based in scripture ... those arguments mean nothing from an objective point of view - and of course the same goes for arguments based on them. Consider my argument from above: "Catholicism and Islam are mutually exclusive" This is objectively true, no matter whether you're a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Atheist.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 11:10 |
Dean wrote:
This is my stumbling block with alien encounters and communication with higher order beings. For all our smarts we cannot communicate with lower order beings - sure we can train some animals to respond to human commands and we can get a general idea of "mood" from the noises some animals make, but those are not dialogues, they are all one way. If we should ever meet a more intellignent lifeform our language will be nothing more than meowing. With projects like SETI we vainly hope that we can commuicate through our "language" of mathematics and physics because they are universal (literally), but even that will be primative and simplistic and won't necessarily be a two-way dialogue. Food for thought... though we may only be allowed to eat it at the sound of a bell.  |
Just for interest:
Exerpt:
These five chimps, who consider themselves a family, now use many more signs than they were ever expected to learn (Washoe herself can use up to 240 reliable signs) ,and sign not only to the humans, but also to each other to communicate. Washoe even taught her own adopted son to sign without human intervention (Fouts).
Many linguists still believe that apes have no real grasp of human language, but are merely imitating their human companions. They insist that while apes may understand individual symbols or words, they do not understand the concepts of syntax, or how words are put together to form a complete idea. However, evidence is continually proving that the nonhuman primate mind is capable of advanced thought (Rayl 89).
Chimpanzees have shown the ability to communicate using ASL to human observers and other chimpanzees about the normal course of surrounding events. They use signs to create natural language categories; for example, they will sign "dog" when shown many different species of dogs and "shoe" whether it be a slipper or a cowboy boot. They can invent new signs and combine signs to metaphorically express something different, for example: calling a radish "cry hurt food" or referring to a watermelon as a "drink fruit" (Fouts). They can comprehend and produce novel prepositional phrases, understand vocal English, translate words into ASL and even transmit their signing skills to the next generation without human intervention.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 11:11 |
Dean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Had my own little anti-religion moment yesterday when I was given a poster advertising my school's Christian group to put up in my room. I refused to do it on the grounds that I don't believe a school should promote religions. This was accepted by the management and I've unwittingly triggered a snowball effect where more than half of the rest of the staff have done the same as me. But I don't feel that good about it because I'm sure this has hurt the feelings of the woman who runs the club. |
Did she tell you that she was offended by your decision? If so, she's the one who "threw the first stone" by asking you to put up that poster.
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This is evidence of how you reach wrong conclusions from nothing: You ask if she got offended and inmefdiately you claim she threw the first stone without waiting for the reply to your question.
In first place, asking a favour is not throwing a stone, she was not forcing Textbook or threatening him, she was only asking him (indirectly through the management) to support her activity, he could have said yes or no, he decided to say no and it was all OK.
Iván
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First of all: I said "if". Second of all, I probably shouldn't have said "threw the first stone", because I wasn't necessarily thinking of something violent. I simply meant that schools shouldn't engage in proselytizing. It's not necessarily illegal (it would be in some countries if it was a public school), but even then I still think it's wrong for any school to mix education and indoctrination.
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I think you are possibly overreacting - An extracurricular interest group for people who are interested in the subject and where attendance is not mandatory cannot be accused of proselytising.
I don't know how much separation between church and state there is in NZ (assuming "Textbook" is in NZ - I seem to recall that he is for some reason, appologies if he isn't) since they escaped imperial rule, my guess is none, or at least nothing legislative, so it wouldn't be "illegal" anyway. |
I wasn't overreacting, but I may have used the wrong words so the impression arose that I was overreacting. I would say that depending on what kind of school it was, protests could be the right thing to do. If the school claims to be neutral in terms of religion, it should not actively promote or discourage specific religions.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 11:35 |
Negoba wrote:
Dean wrote:
This is my stumbling block with alien encounters and communication with higher order beings. For all our smarts we cannot communicate with lower order beings - sure we can train some animals to respond to human commands and we can get a general idea of "mood" from the noises some animals make, but those are not dialogues, they are all one way. If we should ever meet a more intellignent lifeform our language will be nothing more than meowing. With projects like SETI we vainly hope that we can commuicate through our "language" of mathematics and physics because they are universal (literally), but even that will be primative and simplistic and won't necessarily be a two-way dialogue. Food for thought... though we may only be allowed to eat it at the sound of a bell. |
Just for interest:
Exerpt:
These five chimps, who consider themselves a family, now use many more signs than they were ever expected to learn (Washoe herself can use up to 240 reliable signs) ,and sign not only to the humans, but also to each other to communicate. Washoe even taught her own adopted son to sign without human intervention (Fouts).
Many linguists still believe that apes have no real grasp of human language, but are merely imitating their human companions. They insist that while apes may understand individual symbols or words, they do not understand the concepts of syntax, or how words are put together to form a complete idea. However, evidence is continually proving that the nonhuman primate mind is capable of advanced thought (Rayl 89).
Chimpanzees have shown the ability to communicate using ASL to human observers and other chimpanzees about the normal course of surrounding events. They use signs to create natural language categories; for example, they will sign "dog" when shown many different species of dogs and "shoe" whether it be a slipper or a cowboy boot. They can invent new signs and combine signs to metaphorically express something different, for example: calling a radish "cry hurt food" or referring to a watermelon as a "drink fruit" (Fouts). They can comprehend and produce novel prepositional phrases, understand vocal English, translate words into ASL and even transmit their signing skills to the next generation without human intervention.
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 Thanks Jay - I'd clean forgotten about that one - circumstantial evidence for evolution I think, chalk one up for the Homini tribe ( go team!)
I have to come clean and admit that I over-simplified the canine communication thing - they can communicate between species in the same genus but only simplistically - cross breading between domestic dogs and coyotes is possible (because the two species only separated 3 million ya) but there are communication difficulties between mother and pup.
Communication outside the zoological family is another matter altogether.
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What?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 11:42 |
Dean wrote:
Communication outside the zoological family is another matter altogether. |
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 12:19 |
^ dolphins are descended from mermaids and we got the taxonomy wrong... okay? 
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What?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 12:22 |
And now the kicker...in the article, the ability to comprehend language is created (selected for or evolved or whatever) by the pressure of the social group. That is, downward pressure through the levels of organization.
It's the old idea that we got smart because we needed language, not the other way around.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 12:27 |
Negoba wrote:
It's the old idea that we got smart because we needed language, not the other way around. |
Unfortunately, this premise does assume that we actually got smart. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 12:28 |
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 12:53 |
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I get a whole new crop of freshman music majors next Tuesday. I hope we got smart but past experience han't left me very optimistic.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 13:09 |
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^ Just hope they aren't dolphins - those critters can't sing.
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What?
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 13:11 |
Trademark wrote:
I get a whole new crop of freshman music majors next Tuesday. I hope we got smart but past experience han't left me very optimistic.
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Are they all in there because they love great music or are there students there who have no idea who Bruckner is, for example? My question really is, is there still hope in the US for the greatest of all arts?
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 13:22 |
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I know who Bruckner is. He wrote some pretty good symphonies.
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 13:29 |
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You mean like Bruckner Supply, Bruckner Bar & Grill, Bruckner Windows? Some of them might.
Don't get me started.
Most don't though. My experience now is that most choose music because they really love playing and got a push from a band director, etc.. The funding in the public schools is so scarce that most students coming in now are about where where a 9th grader was skills-wise 30-40 years ago, and as far as them having any theory or history background goes, just forget it.
I'm doing post-grad research and working on a book on the decline of "art-music" in the US since1960. I could go on for some time but its probably not the thread for it.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 13:34 |
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Bruckner borrowed heavily from Wagner and Wagner borrowed heavily from my favorite composer, Liszt, so he is okay by me.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 13:41 |
^^That's sad... I fear a world where people think Andrea Bocelli and Andre Rieu (or something like that) are the top exponents of "classical" music....
At least while there's a few of us who like the real thing, it'll survive... And then I always trust in Europe to keep things alive (though the US was a fantastic cradle of talent in the 20th century..)
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 13:57 |
It's all the fault of the atheists anyway. Godless b*****ds. Just trying to get the thread back on topic. 
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 14:11 |
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: September 02 2010 at 14:13 |
The T wrote:
^^That's sad... I fear a world where people think Andrea Bocelli and Andre Rieu (or something like that) are the top exponents of "classical" music....
At least while there's a few of us who like the real thing, it'll survive... And then I always trust in Europe to keep things alive (though the US was a fantastic cradle of talent in the 20th century..) |
Yes Teo, you need faith to make it survive...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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