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Topic ClosedHow many members actually read about Prog?

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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 08:55
Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

I'm sorry Dick to call you DEAN!!!! 


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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 09:55
I just started a thread with the question "How did Genesis fans react to The Lamb" so I guess I'm being directly refered to here...
I'm not a prog novice, I'm 44 and I have listened to prog since before I knew what it was, my elder family members listened to prog while I was doing my addition and substraction and multiplication homework. My lifetime mates are also prog fans, we grew together listening to prog (and other music as well), we have had years of discussions, we have read magazines... you know what I mean.
I think I have a pretty good idea of how did Genesis fans react to the release of The Lamb. And if I want to learn more about it, sure, I can search the net and read stuff for 2 full days.
 
That's not the point. Reading is one very important thing, but it is something completely different from an internet forum. Reading is a 1-way exercise and the purpose is purely to inform and educate yourself.
 
Forums are an interactive amusement. I think many of us here use the forum as a sort of tool for chatting with other people who like similar music as we do, to engage in (hopefully) entertaining discussions, even if in many occasions we will hear again and again what we already know or what has been already said 100 times before.
 
I'm not expecting a single reply by an authoritative music history scholar telling me the objective truth of how did Genesis fans react to The Lamb. I'm simply expecting to hear other PA members' opinions and have some fun. 
 
I understand what you mean and surely all of us can and should educate ourselves, but I think you miss the point of what a forum is for.
   


Edited by Gerinski - August 14 2010 at 11:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 13:18
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Prog and rock in general, as much as I can put my hands on.  But we can't be too elitist or stand-offish to new people, if they don't have much experience with music, what you do is be friendly and help them in their education.    We sure don't want "thread police" dictating what people can and can't talk about.  As long as people aren't breaking any rules or posting in the wrong area, they will talk about what they wish to talk about.  Scroll on by if not interestedWink


This, as well as what Gerinski said above.


Edited by VanVanVan - August 14 2010 at 13:19
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Chris S View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 13:48
Right here is my opinion for what it's worth:
 
How much time do people have to ,say for example, using any topic starter like the Neo/Lamb thread, start doing an exstensive search/research first to see if this topic has been started before? Very few unless you have so much time on your hands that you like to challenge " search" enginesOuch
 
The forum allows an awful lot of people to type away in the " NOW" so unless you are a serious accountant who enjoys auditing copious amounts of threads, then your main thrust or motivation perhaps is not the topic itself, more in data mining.
 
Another thing. There is always the noobies and the oldies tag. Just for the record, so what if a topic has been started previously again and again by newer members. I like Mike Oldfield- Incantations. Why? Because it is repetitive. I also like seeing similar posts from newer members repeating certain topics. Why? I like repetition. The site is better off for it, encouraging ongoing debates from all aspects of membership. That is how it evolves. What happens when all the older members move on? 100 years years on we are still discussing Bach, Mozart, Beethoven. We do not have people up in arms saying please refer to the original writings about these discussions, this has been discussed beforeDisapprove
 
So leave behind the elitist thoughts and encourage fresh discussion, however repetitive you may feel it is. Gerinski for example as outlined above has made some really excellent thread starters recentlyClap
 
As for comments about the site having more elements of negativity lately, I do not agree.It seems like the same old complaints pissing against the wind. Rudeness, insulting and abusive posters aside let's be more tolerant of new questions and discussions regardless of whether some people feel they have doctorates in progressive music. Experience is knowledge so cultivate it, not smother it.
 
Good thread topic BTWSmile And rave on.....all those looking for prog, it will change your life foreverApprove
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 14:05
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

I just started a thread with the question "How did Genesis fans react to The Lamb" so I guess I'm being directly refered to here...
r.
   

Actually i don't think you your thread was being referred to at all. Unless nit has been later on and I missed it.
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:19
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

I just started a thread with the question "How did Genesis fans react to The Lamb" so I guess I'm being directly refered to here...

Actually i don't think you your thread was being referred to at all. Unless nit has been later on and I missed it.
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

I feel  we getting an increase in the number of threads with titles such as:

what was the first prog album,
was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,
is jazz  prog?
 
 
Well, my thread topic was not much different from these so...
No problem, and anyway what I said applies to any such kind of topics, whoever the OP is.
Now and then I also see some thread which personally I find silly, I simply ignore that one and go to some other one which I find more interesting or amusing.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:28
I'd like to think one day i'll read more about Prog but for now i'm way too busy with work,family and listening to music. I read very little except the newspaper. One day i'd like to read some of Peart's books and general books on the seventies progressive movement.Oh and Krautrock. I don't know if i'll make the time though when listening to music means so much more to me than reading books.To each his own i suppose.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:34
[QUOTE=Dick Heath]

I feel  we getting an increase in the number of threads with titles such as:

what was the first prog album,
was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,
is jazz  prog?
 
What is worse the reponses usually don't direct the originator to points of references. So is there a tendency here  to argue rather than educate??? (/QUOTE)
 
First to answer your question: I do try to read not only the content on this site but also books or magazines not referenced here.  I try not to stay with just one source.
 
But I'm not sure if referencing what we write is always the answer.  References are needed in a scholarly manner if we are analyzing historical or factual matters.  But, much of this forum is heavy on opinion.  (which I like)  If I see someone using someone else as a source for their opinion, I'm wondering if they have an opinion?
Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:42
I am sorry if this comes across as a little nasty but it seems that you, Dick Heath, didn't read Anthony's OP in the 'Lamb' thread too properly:

Originally posted by Anthony H Anthony H wrote:

  This probably isn't a particularly original observation, but does anybody agree the Genesis's The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway was the first neo-progressive album? The term obviously hadn't been coined at the time of its release, but "The Lamb" contains many neo-progressive motifs: it consists of vocally-driven prog with expressive guitar and lush keyboards.


So, he clearly did know that neo-prog as a term didn't exist at the time of that album's release and was simply raising a question about some similarities in the music, which by itself was a rather interesting question.  It's unfortunate that you think any use of the word neo-prog out of context even for comparison and not for a factual discussion is so blasphemous.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:59
My vote goes to keep encouraging all questions.  Like many have said, even if the question has been asked before, it doesn't mean it will get the same answer as before.  The best solution may be to add another category to the forums page for those who want a scholarly and intellectual discussion.  If correctly labelled, those who aren't interested will go elsewhere.
 
But, if we want to keep encouraging new members who are interested in learning, let us have a forum so they can talk with all of us old dinosaurs.  We would learn from them as much as they learn from us.
Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 00:25
Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:


Progressive music  WITHOUT structure? LOL Do You think experimentation and improvisation have'nt structure?
I think Progressive music or other genre of music have STRUCTURE.
Quite a lot of music doesn't have any structure, or at least not structure in the sense that a normal person would define it.
Why you say this? One guitarist ( for example) before start playing has structure in mind. every notes play after another notes and these notes build melody has structure. what is different between 2 musicians?
technique, compose and..... theses are build structure. Music WITHOUT structure is not music. Drummer without timing is not drummer. I hope you undrestand me
I'm talking specifically about free improvisation.
There was no set structure or theme or composition in these performances but I am pretty sure they're music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 07:26
1- I think you must learn work with quote. "Learning" is very useful for you.LOL
2- Please note to "speak seriously". Everybody free to speak about everything but when you want to analysis music (or other arts) you must have knowledge about that.
3- I'm not "SNOB" like you and I dont talk about myself. I write my opinion about this topic. If you dont want to read books or try to know about music, why insult me?
4- Music have 2 faces : a)rules and knowledges b) feel and sense. Great musician use their knowledge to impress others. They use perfect technique or perfect arrangment (for example) to make perfect music. What is your criteria for good music?
5- I think you like music for one reason : HEADBANG!!!LOLLOLLOL
 
1 - I listen to music for pure enjoyment.  I listen to the music I like.  I don't have the desire to always analyze a certain piece of music.  I  listen to Bach, John Coltrane, Opeth and The Flower Kings etc. etc.   All because I like their music.
2 - I never said I don't read books or did I say learning was not important. 
3-  I never called you a snob.   I did not directly insult you.   I critizied the attitude.  I don't know you and therefore had no intentions to insult YOU.   It's not my fault you personalilzed it. 
4 - My criteria is, well I guess I already answered that.  Because I like or enjoy it.  I usually don't listen to music I don't like.  For example, Rap, Country, the pop music of today, etc. etc.
5 - What's wrong with a little headbanging?!  Rawks
6 - I hope we can still be friends.  LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 15:45
First I want to talk with LORD. I never want to upset you. I know You dont know me but You attack to me. I just tell my opinion about THIS TOPIC. I dont know you too and when I dont know you why I want to personalize. If I upset you please forgive me my friend. ( sometimes I headbanging too . Thumbs Up)
 
Hi Henry. I try to say improvisation have own structure. I mean without structure never made music. Maybe I shouldn't use "structure" word . I cant found another word to explain my opinion. You know , I use "babylon" to write in English and sometimes its very difficult  work!!!! Ermm
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 08:39
Ok, maybe I didn't explain it clear enough.  I'm not upset at all.  There is nothing to forgive.  I hold nothing against you.    I did not intend what I said to be an attack on your person.  It's like I tell my son when I need to correct him.  "I'm not mad at you, but upset at the behaviour."   I don't like it when proggers come off like a snob.  I include me with that attitude.  I have to watch myself so when I do critique a certain style of music that I don't come off snobish and the music I like is better than the music someone else likes.  Even though it is.  Wink   So please forgive me as well. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:42
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

I feel  we getting an increase in the number of threads with titles such as:

what was the first prog album,
was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,
is jazz  prog?
 
etc. ad nausem, that suggest the authors have not bothered to read the copious amounts of (non-thread) information carefully written and available here, let alone attempted to read any of the books postered here and reviewed. What is worse the reponses usually don't direct the originator to points of references. So is there a tendency here  to argue rather than educate??? The numbers of strikes wrt to the collection of threads largely on books here, would part support my thought that there is only limited interest in reading books that at least have some half decend research done in their preparations. It is clear with some that they have come to expand their knowledge wrt prog especially our younger members, but too often many of the responses to "recommend me...." suggest that a novice should be dropped in at the deep end amongst artists/albums, rather thinking that a novice should "walk before he/she can run" - which for instance happens too often wrt jazz recommendations. (Perhaps such requests need an initial question in response,to be answered by the originator: 'what music do you like?"... and from that provide recommendationsof music of a new genre that  has at least loose connections. You'll note to a recent request on jazz albums, I suggested the discographies found in a couple of books, which tend to be fairly neutral and constructed in their reviews, than those produced by keen PA fan promoting their favourites here).
 
In the heyday of progressive rock (late 60's and early 70's) , it was said the music found a home with middle class teens and 20's , and especially those who were doing some form of higher education. Hence a suggestion: prog was more popular with those who might be thought to be 'intelligent' and enquirying - indeed the perahps the more argumentative part of the youth population? So whilst the following might reflect an old man's arrogance: what happened to self enquiry, and so do others find a malaise, a naivity? Further, do you treat  some threads with contempt and so avoid them like the plague although otherwise believe the subject matter is up your street?
 
 
Hi Dick, (-a little mlate on the sunject, but....Embarrassed)
 
I understand where you're coming from and share some of your frustrations.....
 
One must be dealing with the side effects of the Web and modern society.
 
I have quite a few books on prog and music in general now, but when younger (in my teens), I only had one reference book, an Illustrated Encyclopedia of rock, that was mostly minding of English speaking rock (although Ange and Magma were featured, but not Harmonium or Rush). So the only places I took my infos from were the monthlies (Rock'n Folk and Best in French, Creem in English) and to a lesser extent the weeklies (Sounds, once in a while) and the free stuff (the Canadian periodical New Music Express - I knowWink) and the odd book, notably Gallo's book on Genesis, but I can't say this quenched my thirst much.
 
 
 
 
First, the younger members, impatient  (wanting everything now and not waiting for tomorrow) and broke (at least for buying stuff they can have for free).  PA is sort of an entry-typoe of site, where newcommers can ask intelligent and dumb questions. PA 's forum reputation is not exactly known for its elitist membership, and that's probably why it's so successfull.......
 
 
But deep inside of me, I wish more some people (not necessarily the younger ones, some are actually quite advanced)  refrained from being too impulsive and not thinking enough their opening posts..... Because if they thought about it more, they'd probably find their  answers by themselves with having to post it.
 
Nowadays there are flurry of books and sampler boxsets with plenty of info, but you have to BUY them
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
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as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 14:38
I don't frequently read the articles on the site, but I'm informed enough to not ask retarded questions.   It is kind of irritating to hear things like "What are some of King Crimson's best albums" anymore though, knowing how clearly laid out it all is on the site.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 15:01
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I have some books about progressive rock at home, and have been reading music magazine for years. Now that the Internet is so widespread and readily available (at least in Western countries), I believe there is really no excuse for such lack of information. There are sites dedicated to progressive rock in quite a few languages besides English (I know of at least three or four in Italian), and some of them offer very good reading material on the history and development of the genre.
 
I couple of my pictures have been used in at least 2 books ... and one website did not even have the gall or the werewithal to ask if they could use my pictures!
 
Sometimes the polite thing to do is the easiest!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2010 at 00:53
1
 
LOL
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2010 at 06:37
We can talk about good music or bad music and give reasons for our opinion. Like compare 2 guitarist. One of them have beter technique and we recognize that. BUT when we want compare 2 guitar-hero this is not work. If we vote to one of them this vote come from our TASTE. Writers have their own taste. Many books just explain their writer's taste. Maybe one writer like Genesis more than YES and write a book about that and young fans after read that book thinks " Genesis beter than YES"!!!!
I never trust to this kind of books. I trust to my EARS.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2010 at 08:14
I trust to my EARS.
 
I agree 100%!!  For the most part, who's the better guitarist, drummer, etc etc varies as much as reviews do of an album.  A five star to some may be a one star to others.  The best guitarist to one could be not so great to another.  If I strictly depended on the opinion of others I would have missed out on some incredible music.  Smile 
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