Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?

Chris S wrote: Christians can believe in evolution. That does not mean they admit the ape evolved into homo sapiens. You can seperate them. They have still not found the missing link.

Of course they have found the missing link(s) ... it entirely depends on how you define "missing link", and whether you accept the evidence.

Chris S wrote: On another note I have known atheists who suddenly become spiritual or request for spiritual guidance when confronted with death. Interesting that they baulk at the final hurdle from their atheist position.

Did you watch the Christopher Hitchens video? IMO it's interesting that you would present such broad claims as if they were fact. Do you have any detailed statistics on death bed atheist conversions, or are you just assuming based on your own view on atheism?

Chris S wrote: This is not a generalization more an observation. And you cannot answer whether you will either Mike when the time comes, because you cannot analyze how you will react when confronted with that situation. Your belief or unbelief is in the " Now" only. I wonder what your take is on that? Atheists doing a U-Turn at the final hurdle?

How should I know? Assuming that you are a Christian, I could reverse the situation and ask you why so many Christians are afraid of death. Theoretically death should be the best thing that could happen to a Christian, since in death they are united with God.

Chris S wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: Chris S wrote: Christians can believe in evolution. That does not mean they admit the ape evolved into homo sapiens. You can seperate them. They have still not found the missing link. Of course they have found the missing link(s) ... it entirely depends on how you define "missing link", and whether you accept the evidence. Chris S wrote: On another note I have known atheists who suddenly become spiritual or request for spiritual guidance when confronted with death. Interesting that they baulk at the final hurdle from their atheist position. Did you watch the Christopher Hitchens video? IMO it's interesting that you would present such broad claims as if they were fact. Do you have any detailed statistics on death bed atheist conversions, or are you just assuming based on your own view on atheism? Chris S wrote: This is not a generalization more an observation. And you cannot answer whether you will either Mike when the time comes, because you cannot analyze how you will react when confronted with that situation. Your belief or unbelief is in the " Now" only. I wonder what your take is on that? Atheists doing a U-Turn at the final hurdle? How should I know? Assuming that you are a Christian, I could reverse the situation and ask you why so many Christians are afraid of death. Theoretically death should be the best thing that could happen to a Christian, since in death they are united with God. 1. Agree to disagree   2. No I did not watch the Hitchens video, this is purely based on people I have come across in my life journey whether they are family, friends, aquaintances etc. Yes they are fact to the people I have encountered. I doubt whether my family cell or social network is unique. Statistics...pffft.   3. A bit like standing up to do a presentation to a boardoom, you the know there will be an outcome either way. How many believers deny the fact that their most basic instincts to survive and stay alive instills fear at the final hurdle. Just because you believe you will enter a transcendental state does not mean you cannot fear the actual process of dying. I cannot recall a single film of Jesus on the Cross saying, " hey this is a blast, i'm really groovin here"

Awww, come on man??? Life Of Brian.

Always look on the bright side of life...????


Edited by Slartibartfast - August 15 2010 at 15:05

Chris S wrote: 1. Agree to disagree

If this refers to the question of whether a good case can be made to prove that evolution is true, I'm afraid I'm not going to agree to disagree. There's ample evidence, easily enough to conclude that evolution is a scientific fact.



Great music in the video btw (Do the Evolution by Pearl Jam, More Human than Human by White Zombie).

Chris S wrote: 2. No I did not watch the Hitchens video, this is purely based on people I have come across in my life journey whether they are family, friends, aquaintances etc. Yes they are fact to the people I have encountered. I doubt whether my family cell or social network is unique. Statistics...pffft.

I'll agree to disagree on this one.

Chris S wrote:   3. A bit like standing up to do a presentation to a boardoom, you the know there will be an outcome either way. How many believers deny the fact that their most basic instincts to survive and stay alive instills fear at the final hurdle. Just because you believe you will enter a transcendental state does not mean you cannot fear the actual process of dying. I cannot recall a single film of Jesus on the Cross saying, " hey this is a blast, i'm really groovin here"

IMO this bolsters my case rather than that of the Theists. But on this one I'll also happily agree to disagree.

Slartibartfast wrote: Chris S wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: Chris S wrote: Christians can believe in evolution. That does not mean they admit the ape evolved into homo sapiens. You can seperate them. They have still not found the missing link. Of course they have found the missing link(s) ... it entirely depends on how you define "missing link", and whether you accept the evidence. Chris S wrote: On another note I have known atheists who suddenly become spiritual or request for spiritual guidance when confronted with death. Interesting that they baulk at the final hurdle from their atheist position. Did you watch the Christopher Hitchens video? IMO it's interesting that you would present such broad claims as if they were fact. Do you have any detailed statistics on death bed atheist conversions, or are you just assuming based on your own view on atheism? Chris S wrote: This is not a generalization more an observation. And you cannot answer whether you will either Mike when the time comes, because you cannot analyze how you will react when confronted with that situation. Your belief or unbelief is in the " Now" only. I wonder what your take is on that? Atheists doing a U-Turn at the final hurdle? How should I know? Assuming that you are a Christian, I could reverse the situation and ask you why so many Christians are afraid of death. Theoretically death should be the best thing that could happen to a Christian, since in death they are united with God. 1. Agree to disagree   2. No I did not watch the Hitchens video, this is purely based on people I have come across in my life journey whether they are family, friends, aquaintances etc. Yes they are fact to the people I have encountered. I doubt whether my family cell or social network is unique. Statistics...pffft.   3. A bit like standing up to do a presentation to a boardoom, you the know there will be an outcome either way. How many believers deny the fact that their most basic instincts to survive and stay alive instills fear at the final hurdle. Just because you believe you will enter a transcendental state does not mean you cannot fear the actual process of dying. I cannot recall a single film of Jesus on the Cross saying, " hey this is a blast, i'm really groovin here" Awww, come on man??? Life Of Brian. Always look on the bright side of life...????

Damn I forgot that one- true! The best Monty Python flick too

I'm sure Mike would be happy to argue with any form of theist that wandered in here.

^I still think that posing the question is important in that it can start a thought process within people who used to think that they're religious, but who have never given much thought to it. Obviously that doesn't include people like Iván or jampa17, but it does include the majority of Christians (and Muslims) IMO.

Chris S wrote: Textbook wrote: I've pulled out of the thread on the grounds that it is a futile discussion because the mind of a theist doesn't work properly and the debate is about as fruitful as arguing with a lemon, except the lemon is less bitter.   (I'll probably be pulled back in at some point though.) I will conclude though by saying that the question is settled for me. Theists = wrong. Religion may decline but it will never completely go away- the question cannot be settled universally. And clearly it is also settled in the same way for MrPF. Perhaps this personal settlement the most that can be expected and the argument should be resolved with that. Are you running a P lab in Auckland somewhere?

Or the Hutt.

Any Colour You Like wrote: Chris S wrote: Textbook wrote: I've pulled out of the thread on the grounds that it is a futile discussion because the mind of a theist doesn't work properly and the debate is about as fruitful as arguing with a lemon, except the lemon is less bitter.   (I'll probably be pulled back in at some point though.) I will conclude though by saying that the question is settled for me. Theists = wrong. Religion may decline but it will never completely go away- the question cannot be settled universally. And clearly it is also settled in the same way for MrPF. Perhaps this personal settlement the most that can be expected and the argument should be resolved with that. Are you running a P lab in Auckland somewhere? Or the Hutt.

Trademark wrote: Chris S wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^I still think that posing the question is important in that it can start a thought process within people who used to think that they're religious, but who have never given much thought to it. Obviously that doesn't include people like Iván or jampa17, but it does include the majority of Christians (and Muslims) IMO. I reckon you are a closet Theist Mike, just waiting for the right argument to convince you   Peace... Mike's not in the closet.  He worships Richard Dawkins.

That jibe has worn thin now Tom.

Misrepresenting my position is indeed likely to start a thought process ... but it may not be the one that you hope for.