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Darklord55
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 08 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 357
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:42 |
. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
What??? Attitudes like this is one of the many reasons why people think those who like Prog are snobs. The rest of what I have to say is .
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:47 |
Dick Heath wrote:
I feel we getting an increase in the number of threads with titles such as:
what was the first prog album,
was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,
is jazz prog?
etc. ad nausem, that suggest the authors have not bothered to read the copious amounts of (non-thread) information carefully written and available here, let alone attempted to read any of the books postered here and reviewed. What is worse the reponses usually don't direct the originator to points of references. So is there a tendency here to argue rather than educate??? |
It is my opinion that there is a lot of information here on a lot of things. And a lot of reviews. No doubt about that.
The hard part is that there is no proper way to index these other than in alphabetical order for everyone to find. The other issue ... and I suppose a lot of folks say the same thing about my reviews, film included (over 200 at the IMDB for foreign and art films -- and 250 more to upload!) ... and I am probably too lazy to add all the music and album reviews.
I'm of the opinion that too many of these reviews need to be redone and people stop to say that blah and blah is neo-prog or blah-blah prog and instead go ahead and review things with one's own "personal" descriptions and views ... NEVER with supposed definitions that do not exist. I will listen to an album if you tell me that you like it and why ... I won't if you say because it is neo-prog!
The hard part, and while I do not feel like a victim, it does happen a lot in this board, is that there are some fans that are here strictly for the trolling and the spam. And while Dean and his staff need all the hits they can to help, I'm not sure they can afford to lose them.
Suggestions are tough ... it's hard to disagree with the long history of this board and Dean's and his friend's work ... but it is not "organized" if I may say so. I would prefer that there would be a large index that would help with definitions and a chart, maybe? ... if I'm new to "prog" and see all those definitions, I think I would go freaky and say ... forget that! For example ... the free legal downloads should not be in the Prog Music Lounge, even if it serves mp3's ... it takes away from the discussion!
The other part ... and I have mentioned and written about it several times ... is that the "history" of the progressive movement is ... not as well defined ... in such a way, that the sub-genres would make sense in the first place. I'm not sure that we need professors ... but I can tell you that I would gladly donate some time and effort ... I find it distressing that we call "Epitaph" prog ... but not a condeming anthem against the VietNam War and the IRA issues at the time ... which is why it was written in the first place ... and read several times in many demonstrations ... but no ... it's "prog"! ... and it takes the sould out of the piece and kinda makes KC come off like a band that wouldn't know the difference between an anti war statement and a song about Jane or another bitch! That's just one example!
As for losing fans ... I wouldn't want to lose them ... but I think that we can better house them, and maybe we need to place all new threads in one generic area and them move them to the right place ... the problem being that many folks don't know where it went to!
We might, also, consider thinking about trimming down the number of forums so that things can better be found. Some forums could be combined ... the "advertising" ones should be combined ... but if CDbaby is the parent here, I don't want to tell them what to do with their children!
Edited by moshkito - August 13 2010 at 14:20
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:01 |
Darklord55 wrote:
. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
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Weird seeing this ... specially about "progressive music"!
So much of progressive music is about experimentation and improvisation WITHOUT a structure ... that blues, jazz, rock'n'roll have such a strong tendency to make sure is there. The main issue is, you can NOT create something new unless you show the finger to the old ... just about!
A lot of progressive did do such a thing, but mostly it was a harsh reaction (drugs and all that) to the "establishment", and some of this was done with improvisations and a lot of other elements, that eventually were incorporated into "progressive" music ... namely "long cuts" .. and nowadays ... just another song that is 7 minutes long instead of 3 and still follows the A-B-A format ... how progressive, were it not for the sound effect on the guitar?
Music has been "progressive" for thousands of years ... so in a way, labeling one period "progressive" is almost the same thing as saying that any other period of music is not valid or has anything to offer and that is just plain wrong!
Analysis is over rated ... go ahead and break up your bycicle and then put it together again ... I'm not sure that you can fine tune it exactly as it was before ... it might be better ... if you are an expert on the subject but the parts are the same ... which means that it can only be better if the ability of the legs pedalling are stronger than most ... but that is not about the "music" as much as it is about your "legs". And then you are not analysing the bicycle ... you are analysing the legs? Of course, in a fun way, though, there are nice legs out there! But a new pedaling style is so different as to make it a new bycicle? I am not sure about that!
Sadly, when you state things like that, I am inclined to believe that you have not heard enough music that is free of any form whatsoever, regardless of it being accoustic, electric or what not ... and you appear to be stuck in westernized patterns that have been around for millenia that most of the "progressive" musicians that have ever been around have been trying to kill and change!
Analysis is what you do AFTER the fact ... not BEFORE and not DURING ... because otherwise you prevent the process from creating! You infuse it with things, ideas and thoughts that are not always about that specific moment in time ...
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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CinemaZebra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 6795
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:05 |
The more popular your site is the more n00bs you get, plain and simple.
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UndercoverBoy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:07 |
CinemaZebra wrote:
The more popular your site is the more n00bs you get, plain and simple. |
ex. Gamespot/Faqs, IMDb, 4Chan, Youtube, etc.
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CinemaZebra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 6795
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:11 |
Gamespot was my first forum site. I was banned for being too young after a year there.
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UndercoverBoy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:15 |
CinemaZebra wrote:
Gamespot was my first forum site. I was banned for being too young after a year there. |
It was mine too. I was pretty much a troll, except I believed everything I said. Looking back, I can only cringe/shudder/laugh about some of the nonsense I posted. If any of you think I'm annoying now, you should see what I was like then. I would get confrontational and make personal insults on things as irrelevant and trivial as which characters were going to be in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was too young, that's for sure.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:28 |
I too get a little dismayed by people not doing their homework first. Particularly starting threads that have already been done. Psst, there's this thing called the search function, people, please.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:47 |
moshkito wrote:
Darklord55 wrote:
. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
|
Weird seeing this ... specially about "progressive music"!
So much of progressive music is about experimentation and improvisation WITHOUT a structure ... that blues, jazz, rock'n'roll have such a strong tendency to make sure is there. The main issue is, you can NOT create something new unless you show the finger to the old ... just about!
A lot of progressive did do such a thing, but mostly it was a harsh reaction (drugs and all that) to the "establishment", and some of this was done with improvisations and a lot of other elements, that eventually were incorporated into "progressive" music ... namely "long cuts" .. and nowadays ... just another song that is 7 minutes long instead of 3 and still follows the A-B-A format ... how progressive, were it not for the sound effect on the guitar?
Music has been "progressive" for thousands of years ... so in a way, labeling one period "progressive" is almost the same thing as saying that any other period of music is not valid or has anything to offer and that is just plain wrong!
Analysis is over rated ... go ahead and break up your bycicle and then put it together again ... I'm not sure that you can fine tune it exactly as it was before ... it might be better ... if you are an expert on the subject but the parts are the same ... which means that it can only be better if the ability of the legs pedalling are stronger than most ... but that is not about the "music" as much as it is about your "legs". And then you are not analysing the bicycle ... you are analysing the legs? Of course, in a fun way, though, there are nice legs out there! But a new pedaling style is so different as to make it a new bycicle? I am not sure about that!
Sadly, when you state things like that, I am inclined to believe that you have not heard enough music that is free of any form whatsoever, regardless of it being accoustic, electric or what not ... and you appear to be stuck in westernized patterns that have been around for millenia that most of the "progressive" musicians that have ever been around have been trying to kill and change!
Analysis is what you do AFTER the fact ... not BEFORE and not DURING ... because otherwise you prevent the process from creating! You infuse it with things, ideas and thoughts that are not always about that specific moment in time ... |
Progressive music WITHOUT structure? Do You think experimentation and improvisation have'nt structure?
I think Progressive music or other genre of music have STRUCTURE. I talk about Progressive music because I am in Progressive site and Progressive forum. AND I did my homework 30 years later!!!!
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 15:09 |
Darklord55 wrote:
. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
What??? Attitudes like this is one of the many reasons why people think those who like Prog are snobs. The rest of what I have to say is . |
1- I think you must learn work with quote. "Learning" is very useful for you.
2- Please note to "speak seriously". Everybody free to speak about everything but when you want to analysis music (or other arts) you must have knowledge about that.
3- I'm not "SNOB" like you and I dont talk about myself. I write my opinion about this topic. If you dont want to read books or try to know about music, why insult me?
4- Music have 2 faces : a)rules and knowledges b) feel and sense. Great musician use their knowledge to impress others. They use perfect technique or perfect arrangment (for example) to make perfect music. What is your criteria for good music?
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 16:43 |
O666 wrote:
Progressive music WITHOUT structure? Do You think experimentation and improvisation have'nt structure?
I think Progressive music or other genre of music have STRUCTURE. |
Quite a lot of music doesn't have any structure, or at least not structure in the sense that a normal person would define it.
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CinemaZebra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 6795
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 16:53 |
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caretaker
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 19 2010
Location: united states
Status: Offline
Points: 288
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 18:05 |
Good discussion. Slartibartfast stole my thunder about the search engine. I use it quite a lot for different reasons. I think that if more people would take advantage of it and the guidelines for using the site, it would help a lot .
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 22:40 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
I too get a little dismayed by people not doing their homework first. Particularly starting threads that have already been done. Psst, there's this thing called the search function, people, please. |
Yeah... the search function in this forum is neither user freindly or even reliable... Until a more accessable search function is added to this site I see this constant complaint twards newcomers to be overbearing.
Seriously, the search function has too many variables included and is far too specific in its ability to search that it is not easy to use for the purpose you describe
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 23:40 |
Back to the original topic, which was less about reading this or that book but actually about doing some research prior to posting. As I've repeated to the point of nausea, I'm old and grew up with the music we call prog, which is a decided advantage.
I don't mind participating in a thread where a n00b is asking a reasonable question, i.e., where's a good place to start with Frank Zappa or King Crimson or Miles Davis, my assumption always being that they've never heard these bands. For me, the obvious answer is simple: their first album. But in some sense, that may or may not be the best answer for someone just discovering the genres that make up prog or jazz. I try to give the members of the forum the benefit of the doubt. If someone has never heard FZ or KC or Miles, all of whom have formidable catalogs, and if that person may not have unlimited discretionary income (so that buy 'em all is not a particularly helpful answer), well I don't mind pointing the way to one of the more accessible and better (to my ears) albums of the band. Certainly if someone chooses to start from album one, or even randomly buy Zappa's 200 Motels or KC's Earthbound, they may choose not to look nor go further, at least until they've recovered, in which case they'll miss much of the best.
I can never get the search function here to work. That being said, you don't need the search function to go read the reviews here; just click on the letter. (It took me a while to figure that out ). If it's an "expert" (ha) opinion you desire, well there's always All Music for the core bands. If you want really "expert" (double ha) opinions, just Google or Bing or Yahoo "<insert album name here> reviews".
Now that being said, I doubt I would have ever heard an album from The Decemberists were it not for discussion on the forum. Being the type who just refuses to click on "D", twas my good luck, I guess, stumbling into a thread about them, and having some kind souls suggest where to start. So it cuts both ways for us old farts.
Long long ago, in a galaxy far far way, The Smithsonian Institute put out a six-LP box set of Classic Jazz. The sucker runs the gauntlet, from Scott Joplin (Side 1, Track 1) to John Coltrane (Side 12, Track 4). In between is a sampling of every major jazz artist of the 20th century. Yeah, you can argue with a few choices, both in terms of who was included or excluded, and yes even the song choices for those who made the cut. But what a remarkable way, for a n00b or in my case, one who came to jazz in the very early 70's, to experience and understand the history of the genre.
It's really unfortunate that there can't be a similar effort for prog. I've seen threads that try it (the Prog canon), but don't we disagree! Some authoritive dude at The Smithsonian needs to undertake the project, and put it to CD (if they even do that anymore). We can then argue about who or who didn't make the cut, or that this or that song just ain't representative of this or that band. But...then it's too late; the deal is done and the bits are in the plastic. And...it gives everyone who cares a starting point.
Sorry, I'm ranting...
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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cobb2
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 25 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 415
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 23:48 |
Forums are forums and the kiddies will play.
Blame DT for bringing 'prog' back to the masses.
On a personal note, I like the bit about intellectuals and the curiously enquiring....
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459
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Posted: August 14 2010 at 04:25 |
jammun wrote:
Back to the original topic, which was less about reading this or that book but actually about doing some research prior to posting. As I've repeated to the point of nausea, I'm old and grew up with the music we call prog, which is a decided advantage.
I don't mind participating in a thread where a n00b is asking a reasonable question, i.e., where's a good place to start with Frank Zappa or King Crimson or Miles Davis, my assumption always being that they've never heard these bands. |
The thing that always surprises ME is that newcomers will start new threads asking things like "Which Gentle Giant album do you recommend" or "What are the best Canterbury albums".
Once they've bumped into Progarchives, all it takes is a few clicks in our reviews section to find out ALL they could ever want about such subjects AND MORE!!! No "Search" button needed. Just click on some of links at the top of the Start page, for Prog's sake!
But apparently today's youngsters won't even do any research (even if PA can provide them with all the information they need), no, each and every answer to their Dreary Little Questions has to be SPOONFED to them, in the forums...
[I guess I've got essentially the same gripe with them as Dick Heath. Oh what do you want - I just turned fifty two days ago! ]
Edited by fuxi - August 14 2010 at 04:25
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 14 2010 at 05:00 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
I have absolutely no interest in reading a book about prog or jazz. For the history of the genres I have the internet, and what makes the opinion of some guy who wrote a book better than somebody's opinion on this forum? Especially since something like "essential jazz albums" is hardly arcane knowledge. |
This. Also what CinemaZebra said. I don't really need to know what one person thinks are the best jazz albums on earth, but I do read a lot about it on the net to find out. I did that in the beginning too, nobody told me about a genre called progressive rock, I found out for myself. Yes, a lot of people are too lazy to do that, well, I say, live with it, it's not a crime.
And the thread about Lamb and Neo prog was clearly directed at stylistic similarities and not at Genesis being a neo prog band in the sense the word was used in the 80s. It's quite an interesting topic, actually. Honestly, it's not of particular importance to a young prog fan like me why the term neo prog was coined, and the discussion on aspects of similarity in style between the bands is more interesting because the music's what it's all about, ultimately and whether Marillion or Genesis came first doesn't affect my appreciation of either much.
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619
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Posted: August 14 2010 at 05:22 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
O666 wrote:
Progressive music WITHOUT structure? Do You think experimentation and improvisation have'nt structure?
I think Progressive music or other genre of music have STRUCTURE. |
Quite a lot of music doesn't have any structure, or at least not structure in the sense that a normal person would define it. |
Why you say this? One guitarist ( for example) before start playing has structure in mind. every notes play after another notes and these notes build melody has structure. what is different between 2 musicians?
technique, compose and..... theses are build structure. Music WITHOUT structure is not music. Drummer without timing is not drummer. I hope you undrestand me
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619
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Posted: August 14 2010 at 05:33 |
I'm sorry Dick to call you DEAN!!!!
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