Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Faux Prog Fans
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedFaux Prog Fans

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 15>
Author
Message
lucas View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8138
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2010 at 07:34
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


About punks, the Rock Dynosaur David Gilmour last year has published the Gdansk DVD. What has Johnny Rotten (Lydon) done in the last 10 years?

 
Don't forgot that Johnny Lydon released some weird and intriguing stuff with PIL.
Well, to answer your question, let's say that some people need more money than others.
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
Back to Top
CPicard View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2010 at 07:55
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Giving up to a genre beacuse of ideology or mental closure is a damage that one does to himself, but it's something that happens to everybody at least one time in the life.

About punks, the Rock Dynosaur David Gilmour last year has published the Gdansk DVD. What has Johnny Rotten (Lydon) done in the last 10 years?



Don't ask what Johnny Lydon has done for you, but ask what you could do for him!

...............

I should stop quoting JFK, it's getting silly.

I heard that he participated to a "reality" TV show, after the fail of P.I.L. But I wonder what Sid Vicious has done these last 30 years... What a lazybone!

Back to Top
SMSM View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: July 15 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 210
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2010 at 17:49
The best I can relate to this is in a history of Jazz, where in the late 1940s/early 1950's you had those who totally dismissed bebop and felt only true jazz was swing and new orleans/dixieland. e.g.. Only Louis Armstrong and Benny Goodman sounding groups were worth listening too.
 
In the 1960's, the opposite occured where some only considered bebop and successive forms of jazz to be true jazz, and looked down on swing and and dixieland.
 
If any such types belonged to any of the influential media or something like that, they may have caused others to not bother to listen to the music they did not like and deprived such "non jazz" to be appreciated.
 
As it would have been best to take what some of these "faux Jazz" fans stated as an opinion and not the truth, and actually listen to music, similar advice should be applied to those others consider to be "faux prog fans" 
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2010 at 20:59
Originally posted by SMSM SMSM wrote:

The best I can relate to this is in a history of Jazz, where in the late 1940s/early 1950's you had those who totally dismissed bebop and felt only true jazz was swing and new orleans/dixieland. e.g.. Only Louis Armstrong and Benny Goodman sounding groups were worth listening too.
 
In the 1960's, the opposite occured where some only considered bebop and successive forms of jazz to be true jazz, and looked down on swing and and dixieland.
 
If any such types belonged to any of the influential media or something like that, they may have caused others to not bother to listen to the music they did not like and deprived such "non jazz" to be appreciated.
 
As it would have been best to take what some of these "faux Jazz" fans stated as an opinion and not the truth, and actually listen to music, similar advice should be applied to those others consider to be "faux prog fans" 

And yet, there has been less than universal acceptance of smooth jazz into the jazz fold?  I am not comparing modern prog to smooth jazz, but the point is when the change is not seen as a consistent evolution of the genre, there will be questions.  I find that the parallel with what you have described above can be seen in the development of neo prog.  There were and are people who dismiss it, but at least the early neo prog bands, say Marillion or IQ, can be traced back to 70s prog.  In much the same way, I would not feel while passing from Louis Armstrong to John Coltrane that I was listening to an entirely different kind of music.  But the situation in prog is clearly very different, it's probably not meant to be discussed here but it has been debated on this forum itself many times previously. 

Further, what exactly is influential media opinion on prog?  I don't think lately that has an important role to play anymore, nor is prog taxonomy undertaken seriously.  It is casual and very often uninformed labeling tailored for a listener's convenience more than anything else.  I don't have a problem with that, but I don't understand how people would take it very seriously and defend it as if it were in fact academically established.  The prog metal label stuck on Dream Theater and by implication bands like/influenced by them somewhere in the 90s.  It does not say anything about whether DT are in fact prog rock, as in the umbrella genre, or whether there was nothing that could reasonably called prog metal at any time before.  Both points can indeed be debated too.  
Back to Top
Progosopher View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6467
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2010 at 23:48
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Let's not name any names but I notice a distinct division on the site between people who are actual fans of progressive music (those who seek new, original sounds without regard for what elements are used to create them) and "faux" progressive fans who seek the intellectual cache of prog but actually run a mile from anything unfamiliar. Yes and Genesis are good bands and I like both of them but it must be said that for whatever reason a change/time resistant cult seems to have formed chiefly around them, the members of which only enjoy new prog if it sounds like Yes or Genesis. This to me is absolutely the opposite of prog as it is stagnant.
I accuse those who would not listen to or try music that is receiving acclaim because they "don't like that sort of thing" to be a lilly-livered rascal. I really like Johnny Cash but never would've tried him if I'd stuck to my "I don't like country music" thing. A true prog fan will try ANYTHING. ANYTHING AT ALL. They don't have to like it, but they'll get it and hear it all the way through before deciding.
 
True?
I am coming into this discussion very late - I've been out of town.  It has been interesting reading through them, especially to see how the discussion has evolved (or devolved).  Here's my view, for whatever it may be worth:
 
My simple answer to the quesiton: False!
 
Geek  Explained: Although I am open minded to music new to my experience, I know my tastes well enough to know what will probably or probably not interest me.  I also have a good sense for whose advice to listen to.  If I have already heard a dozen artists within one genre, subgenre, or timeframe, and don't care much for them, how many times should I bang my head against that wall before I realize it is detrimental to my delicate psyche?  If a trusted souce tells me that this other artist is really good, then yeah, I'll give it a try. purely on that recommendation.  This includes people I know personally, and those I only know through their comments here on the Archives.  If the mood strikes me to try something new, I will.  Why assume I am not a true prog fan if that mood never strikes?  Am I a faux fan because I still like Yes after all these years yet cannot stand Tool?  When I read some artist being compared to Tool, I will not pursue.  At the same time, when I read the same about Yes, I usually don't puruse either - I've heard too many clones.
 
Am I a "lilly-livered rascal" to know my own tastes?  Perhaps you sir, lack the intellectual acuity necessary to make logical distinctions, and I toss the gauntlet back in your face (insert Pythonesque insults here - I write in jest). Tongue
 
Maybe the person who says, "I don't like that sort of thing" doesn't really like that sort of thing.  Maybe the person who says it is closed minded.  Both kinds exist, and this is why I say "False."  The statement, in my view, is an over-generalization.  It applies to some, and not to others. Ying Yang
 
And yes, I sometimes get annoyed at the closed minded, but only after they have truly proven to me they are closed minded. Angry
 
BTW: As a guitarist, my country tastes run towards people like Chet Atkins and Tommy Emmanuel (who is often classified as Jazz - wrongly in my book).
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
Back to Top
Henry Plainview View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 03:05
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

We would not demand that classical music or jazz music changes over the years, so why should prog be any different just because it has a name which means "move forward".
This is not even close to being true. The reason jerks like Ken Burns and Wynton Marsalis go around saying that "Jazz is dead" since the '60s is because of its supposed stagnation. We had the avant-garde movement, but not many people actually like that, and jazz-rock, which Wynton doesn't consider to be jazz, so there's just bebop and nobody's thought of anything yet like the transition from swing to bebop (or, at least, not anything that a mainstream audience will listen to), so it hasn't moved forward and not many people really listen to it anymore. And as for classical, while once again the Aaron Coplands of the world beat the spiky Weberns in the concert hall, people don't still write music that sounds like Mozart and Beethoven. In fact, all of the prominent modern composers I'm aware of are at least somewhat avant-garde, but maybe that's selection bias...
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

 
When I discovered "classic prog" (meaning symph, fusion, space, folk) about four years ago I was so enthusiastic about it that I was convinced I'll never listen to anything else for the rest of my life, and that all other forms of pop&rock music were simply inferior. The power of conviction over taste was so strong that anything else than classic prog really sounded awful to me. I remember I once listened to the radio show a friend was doing about alternative rock (the genre I thought was the plague of modern society, and avoided at all costs). As much as I wanted to tell my friend he did a nice show, after the first hour my head ached so bad (really) that I had to stop listening. LOL Fortunately I had to take a quite long break from prog at some point and after that I was never the same. I am now ashamed of myself from that period, and I'm glad I'm not a "prog-fan" any more, just a person interested in good music and musical creativity from any genre. Anyway, I was the perfect example of what Textbook is saying and what you're contradicting. Your convictions can snob out your tastes!
Yeah, most of us probably went through a slightly embarrassing prog as lifestyle phase, although I was never so wimpy that alt-rock gave me a headache. ;-) But while your tastes changed, I think what Trademark is implying is that your reaction at the time was not genuine, and I don't believe that's possible unless you're acting for your friends, which is an entirely different matter. A few years ago, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum was too loud for me, and now I own Merzbow and Kevin Drumm albums, but I wasn't biased against avant-garde music the first time I heard SGM.
Back to Top
boo boo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 15:45
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

I dislike the idea that musical opinions are motivated by ideology more than taste.
 
Sometimes they are. I get annoyed by how punks often praise or criticize a band for their ideals and politics and not even the actual music.
 
Is there such a thing as a faux prog fan? There are fake punks. But why fake being a proggy? It's not exactly a hip thing to be.
Punk was fake anyway .It wasn't about the music and all about the politics apparently.So a fake punk fan probably enjoys the music itself.LOL
 
There's a lot of quality punk rock. But I do feel like a lot of punk fans put more emphasize on the idealism, social status and politics of a band than on their music. When a lot of them praise or criticize an artist that's what they go on about.
 
"Rush sucks, they're f*cking Ayn Rand fans and they're upper class."
 
Yeah but what about their actual music?
 
"The Clash were great, their themes of conformity and class struggles totally strike a chord with me."
 
Yeah but what about their actual music?
 
Oh yeah, and if you ever point out the huge hypocrisy of punk bands like The Clash by pointing out their privilaged art school background, some of their fans might flip the f*ck out. Keep that in mind.


Edited by boo boo - August 13 2010 at 15:48
Back to Top
harmonium.ro View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 15:50
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:


Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

 
When I discovered "classic prog" (meaning symph, fusion, space, folk) about four years ago I was so enthusiastic about it that I was convinced I'll never listen to anything else for the rest of my life, and that all other forms of pop&rock music were simply inferior. The power of conviction over taste was so strong that anything else than classic prog really sounded awful to me. I remember I once listened to the radio show a friend was doing about alternative rock (the genre I thought was the plague of modern society, and avoided at all costs). As much as I wanted to tell my friend he did a nice show, after the first hour my head ached so bad (really) that I had to stop listening. LOL Fortunately I had to take a quite long break from prog at some point and after that I was never the same. I am now ashamed of myself from that period, and I'm glad I'm not a "prog-fan" any more, just a person interested in good music and musical creativity from any genre. Anyway, I was the perfect example of what Textbook is saying and what you're contradicting. Your convictions can snob out your tastes!
Yeah, most of us probably went through a slightly embarrassing prog as lifestyle phase, although I was never so wimpy that alt-rock gave me a headache. ;-) But while your tastes changed, I think what Trademark is implying is that your reaction at the time was not genuine, and I don't believe that's possible unless you're acting for your friends, which is an entirely different matter. A few years ago, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum was too loud for me, and now I own Merzbow and Kevin Drumm albums, but I wasn't biased against avant-garde music the first time I heard SGM.


It was the result of applying genuine convictions over taste, which means that my taste wasn't genuine in its choices. And by that I agree I was faux prog fan. The convictions were genuine, though. LOL
Back to Top
Alitare View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 01:13
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

I dislike the idea that musical opinions are motivated by ideology more than taste.
 
Sometimes they are. I get annoyed by how punks often praise or criticize a band for their ideals and politics and not even the actual music.
 
Is there such a thing as a faux prog fan? There are fake punks. But why fake being a proggy? It's not exactly a hip thing to be.
Punk was fake anyway .It wasn't about the music and all about the politics apparently.So a fake punk fan probably enjoys the music itself.LOL
 
There's a lot of quality punk rock. But I do feel like a lot of punk fans put more emphasize on the idealism, social status and politics of a band than on their music. When a lot of them praise or criticize an artist that's what they go on about.
 
"Rush sucks, they're f*cking Ayn Rand fans and they're upper class."
 
They might be Ayn Rand fans, but they sure don't pay much attention to her work. It's like a guy reading 1984 and hating it because it doesn't got no spaceships and blaster rifles.

Yeah but what about their actual music?

It sucks a big fat monkey wiener
 
"The Clash were great, their themes of conformity and class struggles totally strike a chord with me."
 
Well, at least there are no priests of the temple of Syrinx, lordy!

Yeah but what about their actual music?

Hey, they actually got melodies!
 
Oh yeah, and if you ever point out the huge hypocrisy of punk bands like The Clash by pointing out their privilaged art school background, some of their fans might flip the f*ck out. Keep that in mind.

I suck eggs.


See, this is why you don't let me into these conversations unsupervised. Feelings get hurt, Rush gets bashed, and it's not a pretty scene.


Edited by Alitare - August 14 2010 at 01:19
Back to Top
boo boo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 01:29
Public announcement! You are already my least favorite member of this forum.
Back to Top
Alitare View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 01:38
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Public announcement! You are already my least favorite member of this forum.


At least I'm a self-referential troll. Walter, he like, takes himself seriously, or something. Me, I'm jus' in it for the gags. There are bajillions of bands I dislike more than Rush, Rush just happens to be the most popular band I dislike tons.

I'd tell you not to take me seriously, but I want you to, because that's funnier to me at the end of the day.

Back to Top
boo boo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 01:42
^ This guy hasn't been banned because?
 
Yeah and for someone who is compelled to go into a Rush bashing tirade just because someone briefly mentioned them, completely ignoring his original point in doing so, and even though he likes Rush enough to give 3 of their albums 4 star ratings then yeah I'd say you're a f*cking troll.
 
Admitting it doesn't really excuse your presence on what I thought was supposed to be a forum with standards.


Edited by boo boo - August 14 2010 at 01:44
Back to Top
Alitare View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 01:53
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

^ This guy hasn't been banned because?
 
Yeah and for someone who is compelled to go into a Rush bashing tirade just because someone briefly mentioned them, completely ignoring his original point in doing so, and even though he likes Rush enough to give 3 of their albums 4 star ratings then yeah I'd say you're a f*cking troll. Admitting it doesn't really excuse your presence on what I thought was supposed to be a forum with standards.


Those reviews were ignorant lies! Well, except for Moving Pictures. Side one of that sucker's really cool. I need to rewrite my reviews. I wrote those when I allowed myself to be influenced by outside opinion. This forum DOES have standards, they're just lower than yours. Wanna know why? Because they'd let Rush in! Bwahaha!

Okay, so, prog and progressive are words and most of the stuff in here is opinions, and then words go whiddley and sometimes someone says something that makes me feel good on the inside, and then it gets attacked by others and, ... !@#!@..

Sometimes words go whooo, and I watch, but my eyes whip 'roun', go lolly lolly. Definitely salmons. But music is such and so, and sometimes I hate new stuff (like Nickelback), but sometimes old stuff (like Rush) I hate, too. And newly some, bananas,,,,,. Stuff is me liking it when it's make my heart go bzzzzzzzzzzzzz. (like maudlin of the Well). When olden ballzak sings Mike Oldfield's Ommagawd, I like that, too.,,,. Two....to....teu....tew...

It's all a lie, it's true. I think, I guess, I know, I think I know, f*ck off. Why can't I remember?
Back to Top
boo boo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 02:00

If you don't get banned I probably will because I can't tolerate people like you at all.

Back to Top
Alitare View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 02:07
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

If you don't get banned I probably will because I can't tolerate people like you at all.



Oh, relax, Boo Boo, there's pickanick baskets afoot. It's not like I'm serious, or anything.

What is it about me that you cannot stand?
Back to Top
boo boo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 02:13

That you make Rush bashing into a stupid redundant gimmick, that you're a pretty poor troll and that your attempt at humor is nauseating.

The better question is, is there anything I like about you? So far, no.
 
I know I'm breaking the rules here, so save your response for a PM. Though I prefer you don't even do that because you're not worth talking to any further.


Edited by boo boo - August 14 2010 at 02:16
Back to Top
Alitare View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 02:19
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

That you make Rush bashing into a stupid redundant gimmick, purposely, that you're a pretty poor troll, purposely, and that your attempt at humor is nauseating, purposely.

The better question is, is there anything I like about you? So far, no.
 
I know I'm breaking the rules here, so save your response for a PM. Though I prefer you don't even do that because you're not worth talking to any furthur.


Ya know, if someone bans you over me, It would be pretty sad. I'm not worth getting banned over. It'd be funny, though.
Back to Top
Easy Livin View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 02:50
Enough guys. This has been a good discussion to date, please don't spoil it for others.
Back to Top
boo boo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 04:06
Originally posted by SMSM SMSM wrote:

The best I can relate to this is in a history of Jazz, where in the late 1940s/early 1950's you had those who totally dismissed bebop and felt only true jazz was swing and new orleans/dixieland. e.g.. Only Louis Armstrong and Benny Goodman sounding groups were worth listening too.
 
In the 1960's, the opposite occured where some only considered bebop and successive forms of jazz to be true jazz, and looked down on swing and and dixieland.
 
If any such types belonged to any of the influential media or something like that, they may have caused others to not bother to listen to the music they did not like and deprived such "non jazz" to be appreciated.
 
As it would have been best to take what some of these "faux Jazz" fans stated as an opinion and not the truth, and actually listen to music, similar advice should be applied to those others consider to be "faux prog fans" 
 
Genre purists are annoying in general.
 
Prog purism doesn't make any sense. Because they're applying rules that the genre was always meant to defy rules. Saying a band isn't prog because they take influences form a certain genre is idiotic because the idea of prog is that it can merge any genre into rock music.
 
So a prog band can totally be influenced by punk rock or techno or rap, whatever the hell they want if they take those elements and put them into a prog context, it's prog. The idea of progressive rock is that anything can be done, that means no genre is off limits.


Edited by boo boo - August 14 2010 at 21:16
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 04:12
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

[. Saying a band isn't prog because they take influences form a certain genre is idiotic because the ideal of prog is that it can merge any genre into rock music.
 


In that case, how do people say with so much certainty that a certain band isn't prog at all?  That happens a lot of the time, whether here or anywhere else in prog discussions?  Why do people throw a fit when a pop or mainstream artist with some progressive tendencies in songwriting is suggested?  If what is prog cannot be defined, how and why do people talk like they know exactly what it is?  Either they don't or they do and just want to play along with the crowd, I very much suspect that it's often the latter.


Edited by rogerthat - August 14 2010 at 04:17
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 15>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.184 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.