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BaldFriede 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10266
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 Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:35 |
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No, because the flaws are removed, which makes the musicians sound like machines.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:13 |
...because they are played by machines......
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CinemaZebra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 6795
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:59 |
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For the most part I'm with Friede on this one, actually. A lot of modern music, regardless of how well it is written doesn't appeal to me as much as the 70's stuff, simply because the older it is the more real it feels to me. Studio "perfection" often feels robotic to me as well, but I will say that the actual music is what matters most, regardless of production.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:48 |
 Henry Plainview wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
You are totally missing the point, it appears. No, I am not saying
anything like that. Human beings are not perfect; there are flaws every
time a human being performs music. If you don't believe me ask Efgeny
Kissin, one of the best classical pianists there are. He said in an
interview that he makes a lot of mistakes during concerts. And why mot?
It is only human. But today's bands try to eliminate these imperfections
in their studio productions, and this makes the music sound very
sterile.
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Of course people make mistakes, but I'm saying, how can a mistake make something better? |
Because it sounds as if it is being played by a human being if there are mistakes, quite simply. The non-existence of mistakes makes it sound as if it is played by a machine. That's one of the reasons modern records sound so sterile.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:42 |
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"OK lads, this is the final take, so i want to hear plenty of mistakes...you listening Rick?"
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:27 |
BaldFriede wrote:
You are totally missing the point, it appears. No, I am not saying
anything like that. Human beings are not perfect; there are flaws every
time a human being performs music. If you don't believe me ask Efgeny
Kissin, one of the best classical pianists there are. He said in an
interview that he makes a lot of mistakes during concerts. And why mot?
It is only human. But today's bands try to eliminate these imperfections
in their studio productions, and this makes the music sound very
sterile.
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Of course people make mistakes, but I'm saying, how can a mistake make something better?
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Anaon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2005
Location: Kobaïa
Status: Offline
Points: 849
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 05:07 |
mono wrote:
Very interesting topic! Those grow too fast for me, I just can't keep up...
About the main subject, I play with a trio that plays music driven by improvisation, and that's "made-for-live".
So we asked ourseleves this question before going to the studio: do we record live (all of us), or individually with MIDI correction...
We have quite a 70's sound, mixed with modern ones (piano, rhodes, organs, synth...), and we went with the live recording, as we thought that it would bring out the energy of the music in much more accuracy.
There is also the fact that we react a lot to each other's playing, so it makes it difficult to imagine an instrument-by-instrument recording.
Still, this is far from being a general opinion.
I think bands like Porcupine Tree, Oceansize, Meshuggah made the absolute right choice by going with the cleanest most produced sound they could get, because I think these bands need to have perfect productions in order for their music to sound best.
But I could very well see bands like Mastodon, La Terre Tremble!!!, or math rock bands recording live, because a 'rawer' sound is welcome, and energy comes from a great symbiosis of the instruments.
Another question comes to mind with this discussion:
Metronome or no metronome for recording? Do you need to be in perfect sync all the time?
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Very good entry I think!! I think you're right about bands like PT, need to sound and play perfectly to offer the best.
Metronome question is very interesting as well. I watched something about Jimmy Page talking about this regarding Stairway To Heaven, where tempo constantly change. Well, a metronome can be programmed but would it be the same?
I would love to record without metronome but as I play every instrument, metronome is quite necessary...
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mono
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2005
Location: Paris, France
Status: Offline
Points: 652
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 04:50 |
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Very interesting topic! Those grow too fast for me, I just can't keep up...
About the main subject, I play with a trio that plays music driven by improvisation, and that's "made-for-live".
So we asked ourseleves this question before going to the studio: do we record live (all of us), or individually with MIDI correction...
We have quite a 70's sound, mixed with modern ones (piano, rhodes, organs, synth...), and we went with the live recording, as we thought that it would bring out the energy of the music in much more accuracy.
There is also the fact that we react a lot to each other's playing, so it makes it difficult to imagine an instrument-by-instrument recording.
Still, this is far from being a general opinion.
I think bands like Porcupine Tree, Oceansize, Meshuggah made the absolute right choice by going with the cleanest most produced sound they could get, because I think these bands need to have perfect productions in order for their music to sound best.
But I could very well see bands like Mastodon, La Terre Tremble!!!, or math rock bands recording live, because a 'rawer' sound is welcome, and energy comes from a great symbiosis of the instruments.
Another question comes to mind with this discussion:
Metronome or no metronome for recording? Do you need to be in perfect sync all the time?
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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: August 12 2010 at 17:36 |
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So if a band is formed in December 1989 but doesn't release their first piece of music until January 1990 its cool then?
lol
Edited by JJLehto - August 12 2010 at 17:36
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18058
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Posted: August 12 2010 at 16:20 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
el böthy wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Modern production encourages laziness, since lousy performances can be dropped onto ProTools and then strung together to create technically perfect Frankenstein's Monster that's not representative of how much the band actually sucks. Put them on stage and you'll see how terrible these new acts are. What's worse, modern recording, digital effects and other implements create a samey-stounding stew of sound that simply can't compare to the age where real musicians played real music and got it down on tape.
Say "NO!" to new music.
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You´re ignorance baffles me 
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he's trolling
Or, he was dropped
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Oh my Gawdddd .. The Tin Drum all over again! Is he hurt?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Anaon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2005
Location: Kobaïa
Status: Offline
Points: 849
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Posted: August 12 2010 at 05:13 |
richardh wrote:
Anaon wrote:
richardh wrote:
What an hilarious thread. I sometimes wonder if people are capable of recognising whether something is good or not without having it labelled 'seventies' or whatever. |
You didn't really understand my thread if you think so... It's more than just a "seventies" label. If you can't hear the differences between 70's sound, interpretation, production and gear from the 70's compared to the ones of today, I'm sure some people could explain you ;)
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Sorry wasn't intending to deride your original post just find it amusing that some can't seem to get past the seventies or even 1973 for that matter.
Some albums recorded in the late seventies sound very different to those recorded earlier in the decade. Obvious example- Going For The One v Close To The Edge. The production on Genesis albums took a massive leap (forward or backwards depending on your viewpoint) from Lamb Lies Down On Broadway to Trick Of The Tail.
The 90's had a bit of a revival in old style recording techniques with Par Lindh Projects 'Gothic Impressions' and Anglagard's 'Hybris' so its too general just to assume that all albums were recorded in the same way according to a specific time frame.
Hope thats a bit more helpful 
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No problem, thanks for posting with more explanations ;) There are always exceptions of course, in the 70's and today. But once again I'm not saying 70's sound is necessarly better than modern sound, it's just different and the thread was meant to be about interpretation more than sound in itself. About those albums which kept the mistakes in some takes but also capture the vibe.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: August 12 2010 at 01:38 |
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The Monodrone
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Indiana, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4489
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Posted: August 12 2010 at 01:37 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
ptkc123 wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
I have to ask only because I havn't really dealt with you much Walter, and I am honestly curious.
Is 1989 a line? Like after that, it does not even matter?
And do you like bands that exist pre 1989 but released stuff after? Are all those now junk?
Also, how over the top you are I find it very difficult to believe you are 100% sincere, but it provides me with nonetheless.
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I totally want to hear Walter's answer to this... I've often contemplated asking him this myself .
Walter...? Walter...!?
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All post-1989 artists should just pack it up, get their stuff off the market and move on to something that's actually productive. Leave the music the pros, those Golden Age heroes who knew how to actually make music rather than the slop that gets lobbed at us by the kids.
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So you're OK with, say, King Crimson making music today? I don't think there's a difference with KC making new music versus a new artist making new music that is of high quality. So the youth (or "kids" as you put it) aren't capable of making quality music nowadays? You know, Zappa and Fripp were young once... they made pretty damn good music.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 23:14 |
el böthy wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Modern production encourages laziness, since lousy performances can be dropped onto ProTools and then strung together to create technically perfect Frankenstein's Monster that's not representative of how much the band actually sucks. Put them on stage and you'll see how terrible these new acts are. What's worse, modern recording, digital effects and other implements create a samey-stounding stew of sound that simply can't compare to the age where real musicians played real music and got it down on tape.
Say "NO!" to new music.
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You´re ignorance baffles me
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he's trolling Or, he was dropped
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 23:12 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Modern production encourages laziness, since lousy performances can be dropped onto ProTools and then strung together to create technically perfect Frankenstein's Monster that's not representative of how much the band actually sucks. Put them on stage and you'll see how terrible these new acts are. What's worse, modern recording, digital effects and other implements create a samey-stounding stew of sound that simply can't compare to the age where real musicians played real music and got it down on tape.
Say "NO!" to new music.
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You´re ignorance baffles me
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 21:34 |
Good Lord, it's time to throw in my usual gratuituous reference to Mouth & MacNeil  to calm youse all down.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 21:25 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18058
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 21:11 |
Anaon wrote:
Hi!
I'm thinking about this for a long time... I'm a 70's progressive rock fan because of the songs of course but also because of the sound and interpretation and even because of the way albums were recording in the 70's.
...
Today, recording techniques are quite differen and many artists/producer are searching for "perfection" in sound and interpretation.
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I never thought that the "sound" was the defining moment in music.
The sound itself gave us something that was different, since a lot of the synthesizer stuff in the 70's was so new to our ears and they were used as sound effects and elements that added to the completeness of the work, as opposed to today when synthesizers are nothing but samplers and symphonic elements wannabees! Keyboards nowadays are just another piano, so to speak.
The real issue is that there is a fight that the analogue recordings are better than the digital. As time goes by this will be over and analogue all dead anyway ... and digital will keep getting better and better to the point where things can already be done right anyway.
In a way, the recording abilities of yesterday is exactly the same as today ... and I'll give you an example. The import version of Sgt Peppers and Dark Side of the Moon (years ago!) had a lot more background stuff in it. In the American releases, these were either muddled down or almost deleted --- the people who did this probably thought that the audience was too stupid to appreciate all that talk and jokes and everything else! ... and in the past 5 years, when the "digitally remastered" stuff came out ... guess what it sounded like? ... yeah ... almost exactly like the imports in those days ... so ... did anything change? NO ... you got ripped off by advertising and people that have the conscience and mentality of a pirana.
Today, there are multi trax and you can do it on Sonar, or Ableton Live ... or what not ... but many of these abilities are being wasted, and the tracking being used by singling out the drums that a drummer will never be able to play! Can you see half the rap stuff in 64 trax? ...
That is not to say that there is no good music today ... like yesterday, there is a lot of good music. I think the biggest problem is that there is so much of it and the span of quality and ability has gotten so wide that it is almost impossible to tell you if it is good or not ... but I can tell you one thing ... the majority of stuff being recorded out there is utter crap and does not have the attention to detail as a lot of things did, that helped create "progressive" and "prog" music. The majority of stuff today is put together so badly and so cheaply as to make the music ... poor by comparison! And that is because the majority of stuff out there is "hit" and "sound" and "style" oriented ... and when that happens the majority of the individuality that created the things that we love to talk about ... is nearly gone. And the majority of bands these days are mired in very poor habits and lousy production!
There is a good reason why Steven Wilson is so wanted out there!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 16:24 |
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The interpretation and "semi-live" recording way of the 70's, with the production sound of today, but avoiding excessive manipulation and overproduction. By this I mean for example, not recording one fill and then copy/paste it to 4 more places of the song, or not using the time correction tool which if you played a note 0,0000002 seconds out of place it automatically moves it to the precise time position. It's this kind of things which make the music sound cold and sterile. But as for the sound quality itself, I prefer the one of today.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 15:06 |
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when we recorded "The Goat And the Donkey" we deliberately recorded it live in the studio,with a few friends. no overdubs, no nothing, and one take for each track only. we could perhaps have had a more perfect result, some will say "better" result if we had done it differently. but we wanted to catch the spirit of the music, and you only catch that when playing live
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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70's sound and interpretation compared to today
