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uduwudu 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007
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Points: 2601
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 Posted: August 11 2010 at 04:12 |
Pretentious as I understand it applies to prog becauseyer basic cadential I-IV-V rock and roll is where it was at. There, no more thinking required (for the critics.) One more chord for soul and that is it. Then someone added chords, harmonies, orchestrations. Blast! People who could play music properly were now adding their .02 worth and getting involved. It wasn't fair. All those who couldn't play wanted to (see punk) and thought they had the "right" to tear down dinosaurs and tell rock fans what to listen to and not. Now that is pretentious.  ...Frankly (IMVVHO) if rock had been left to it's basic devices it would have died long before 1962 when it was resurrected. Then where would we be...??
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thechrisl
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Joined: April 23 2010
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 10:27 |
 InClouds wrote:
So then aren't you just changing the definition of pretentious to whatever you want it to be? If the music is cheesy, then call it cheesy. If it can have so many possible meanings then it no longer really serves a purpose.
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That's my point more or less. It's very subjective. There is no warning label on the back of the CD or anything. By definition answering this question is bound to offend someone who totally loves what you are tagging with the term. So it's best not to take this thread too seriously, it's really just interesting to hear what the different opinions are.
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Alitare
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Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 10:40 |
uduwudu wrote:
Pretentious as I understand it applies to prog becauseyer basic cadential I-IV-V rock and roll is where it was at. There, no more thinking required (for the critics.) One more chord for soul and that is it.
Then someone added chords, harmonies, orchestrations. Blast!
People who could play music properly were now adding their .02 worth and getting involved. It wasn't fair.
All those who couldn't play wanted to (see punk) and thought they had the "right" to tear down dinosaurs and tell rock fans what to listen to and not. Now that is pretentious.
...Frankly (IMVVHO) if rock had been left to it's basic devices it would have died long before 1962 when it was resurrected. Then where would we be...??
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We'd have jazz, and life would be perfect. No more war.
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007
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Points: 2601
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 20:01 |
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Yes we would have jazz. Life would indeed be just fine. Good point. So long as that includes Frank Zappa.
We will however have wars. Lots of them. Forever and ever. Amen. Etc.
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Bitterblogger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 04 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1719
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 21:14 |
uduwudu wrote:
Pretentious as I understand it applies to prog becauseyer basic cadential I-IV-V rock and roll is where it was at. There, no more thinking required (for the critics.) One more chord for soul and that is it.
Then someone added chords, harmonies, orchestrations. Blast!
People who could play music properly were now adding their .02 worth and getting involved. It wasn't fair.
All those who couldn't play wanted to (see punk) and thought they had the "right" to tear down dinosaurs and tell rock fans what to listen to and not. Now that is pretentious.
...Frankly (IMVVHO) if rock had been left to it's basic devices it would have died long before 1962 when it was resurrected. Then where would we be...??
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I don't mind that punks called prog pioneers dinosaurs; after all, they're entertainers trying to get a rise out of us fans; what was pretentious is that critics just parroted that stance without doing their duty of examination.
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 21:30 |
Hmm, I rather think the press originated the idea. Something to do with not getting invited to Floyd backstages and interviews (syuch as they ever happned at the time.) Not to mention the idea that interviewing Tony Banks may not get them high or laid. Not a scene I ever associated with Gabriel's Angels aka Genesis.  I reserve the right to be completely wrong of course. The odd thing is that this dinosaur thing has been perpetuated for longer than it first was seen as ancient (and therefore a BAD thing.) It wasn't just pretentious of the press; it was wrong in their role as objective (such as anyone can be) gatekeepers of the music world. Still I shopped for some music (Schubert, Greig and Vai) today and saw a magazine with PROG as the title. A Classic Rock spin off. Maybe it's all fashionable now.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 18066
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 21:35 |
Hi,
How sad that all people can go on in this thread is trashing Dream Theater.
I have only trashed the band for their lousy staging and allowing themselves to come off as a cheap and loud garage band ... not for their music itself, which is fine, but does lack subtlety ... with a drummer that is so good that he still has to hit the snare drum every 4th beat ... a metronome is a lot less pretentious!
And we tend to hate metronomes, anyway!
Pretentious is when you are dealing with ego's and overblown music that is using loudness instead of quality and there are a lot of lesser and 2nd rate progressive bands that fit the bill. Some have one or two good things, but that does not mean they are above the term!
ELP had good music ... but they got bored with it, and thought they needed to blow out the quadraphonic sound and far out visuals everyone else had ... and for that they got the waste of electricity award! And what a well deserved one it was too!
But a lot of people also thought David Bowie was pretentious as all hell when he did Kurt Weill ... yeah ... and this board's folks kringe at the thought! A lot of others thought that U2 is an overblown pretentious band ... that tries to justify its work with one or two songs in each album that are with it! Others thought that Pink Floyd was pretentious when The Wall first came out ... until it sold millions, but PF got new fans and even more of them now!
I never thought The Wall was pretentious, but I did think "Wish You Were Here" was very pretentious and a copy of DSOTM ... with the exception of one song trashing the record companies for forcing them to do something they didn't want to do ... the stuff that came out later on "Animals" had been played in concert for more than 2 years by then!
Pretentious to me, was ... bands like ASIA ... trying to take advantage of the "prog" mold ... when it was just another megastar show to make money! And it did!
Edited by moshkito - August 12 2010 at 18:59
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Bitterblogger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 04 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 1719
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Posted: August 11 2010 at 21:36 |
Maybe it's all fashionable now. --uduwudu
Prog fashionable? Then it's a time warp, and Nixon must be President.   |
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AerosolKid74
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Joined: May 20 2010
Location: Northampton
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Points: 46
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Posted: August 12 2010 at 05:33 |
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Egg in general
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Prog Rock: Founded on a fundamental misunderstanding of the word virtuoso.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 18066
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Posted: August 12 2010 at 19:06 |
AerosolKid74 wrote:
Egg in general |
Considering the time and place I disagree.
It might be considered a bit more "academic" in its approach, and sometimes I think this is a bit too "composed" for my tastes as so much of the Canterbury stuff (specially towards the jazz area) tends to be ... it always felt like to me that I was amidst a bunch of collegiate grad school folks, and you know they don't talk to the undergraduates ... which would be pop music!
Listening to this today, with ears for the 2000 days and metal thrashing, will always have something like this sound not as good. In my book a lot of metal thrashing is a heck of a lot more pretentious than this was ... at least this was not going around trying to tell you that it is important and operation mindcryme is a valid ideal that justifies my guitar thrashing!
Nice music ... make that very nice ... is about all it is ... but it is hardly muzak like most metal thrashing these days!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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besotoxico
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 06 2008
Location: ATL
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Points: 34
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 10:40 |
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I've heard and read that Patrick Moraz can be quite a douche in the
studio and on tour.
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Lies, he only tells the truth, for he means it,
means, not anything he says, eyes unseen,
but everything is ........
So sincere, so sincere, so sincere, so sin.
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 905
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 16:50 |
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Prog fans bitching about something being pretentious is like being an NES fan who criticizes video games for having dated graphics and sound. That's part of the whole appeal.
Edited by boo boo - August 13 2010 at 16:52
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boo boo
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 17:24 |
InClouds wrote:
thechrisl wrote:
ELP -- The Endless Enigma pt. 2 when the vocals kick in. Mainly because it is wedged clumsily in between two of their best tracks: Fugue and From The Beginning.
See also 80% of Dream Theater.
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Why does DT get so much hate around here? I'm thoroughly baffled. There are certainly much more pretentious prog bands then Dream Theater, that's for sure. |
I can't think of any.
They are pretentious, but not in the fun and entertaining way that most prog bands are.
I think all music is inherently pretentious, if you feel like your music is something that needs to be shared with people, you probably have some sense of self importance. there are different kinds of pretentious.
The worst kind is to just be a straight up arrogant snob who considers himself superior to everyone else. Now does that sound more like prog or does that sound more like a lot of punk and metal bands?
Bands like Yes and Genesis were just very ambitious, were they really that snobby though? I don't recall them constantly trashing other bands the way a lot of punk musicians did.
ELP, I don't even understand why people think they actually took themselves that seriously. It always seemed to me like they were always having fun with what they did, they were always goofing off and cracking smiles, what's so bad about that? I think they were always aware of how ridiculous they were, they wouldn't have had it any other way. That's one of the great things about that band that people don't understand. They didn't give a f*ck about what their critics said. Going to an ELP show was like going to the circus, when you listen to songs like Karn Evil 9 I think that's what they had in mind. Rather than something that was meant to be taken very seriously.
Now Dream Theater do seem like total snobs to me, they always look "serious" and their music isn't even ambitious, it's just all the prog cliches repackaged for metalheads. A lot of 70s prog had a sense of humor despite what critics say. But that's not the case for Dream Theater and their fans it seems like.
This wouldn't bother me so much if their music wasn't so damn generic and boring.
Edited by boo boo - August 13 2010 at 17:26
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007
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Points: 2601
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Posted: August 14 2010 at 04:20 |
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For unpretentious and fun lets have a look at friends Rush.
"We are the plumbers who have come to fix your sink..." A rewritten 2112 Syrinx. I do wonder about how a serious Rush fan might feel when perhaps his / her / it's favourite tune (possibly) is treated with less than total reverence.
As for pretension I recall a quote from Paul Weller - "just the act of releasing a record is pretentious." Everyone's guilty!
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GY!BE
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Montreal
Status: Offline
Points: 538
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Posted: August 24 2010 at 22:04 |
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Prog is organized pretentiousness working with itself without defined limits of conformity.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14550
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Posted: August 26 2010 at 04:49 |
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Stonebolt
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Joined: May 04 2010
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Points: 91
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Posted: August 26 2010 at 19:27 |
I listened to In the court of the crimson king for the first time a few days ago. I gave it a three star review.
To me, moonchild had a terrible effect on the album due to its pretentiousness. I find a little noodling to be okay, but only when done in moderation and with some class. The noodling in moonchild almost made me cringe.
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007
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Posted: August 26 2010 at 20:39 |
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I used to think that with Moonchild. The thing is if you crank the volume up the details emerge and it turns out to be a lyrical piece after all. Took me years and a PA member's advice to get me there. It was worth it hough. It's a five star album by me.
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Stonebolt
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Posted: August 26 2010 at 21:48 |
Good point, but couldn't you like anything if you took years to do it?
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boo boo
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Joined: June 28 2005
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Posted: August 26 2010 at 22:35 |
Moonchild isn't any more noodling than a lot of avant garde stuff that gets a lot of critical acclaim, it was at least ahead of it's time.
I actually like the noodling section of the song, a soothing and surreal atmosphere and I like freeform stuff, though I agree that for 9 minutes it goes on for too long. But hey the 40th anniversary version cuts out like 2 and a half minutes of the improv, a wise move I think.
Edited by boo boo - August 26 2010 at 22:35
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Most Pretentious Moments In Prog