Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all. Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
Posted: August 09 2010 at 11:49
And many Atheists are more Theist in the way they worship science and follows the "truth"... it's a matter of points of view Mike you know... I know you will argue that but there's no difference, according to your simplistic points of view that somebody who believes in God but "doesn't go to church is almost an Atheist". That's unaccurate to say the least. If he believes in God, then he canīt be an Atheist. Simple...
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
^ As far as I am concerned, Deism and Atheism are essentially the same as far as our daily lives are concerned. In that aspect, I would indeed say that both are equally irrelevant. In relation to Theism I would say that both are extremely relevant. BTW: I believe that numerically speaking, most Theists today are practically Deists ... they don't go to church anymore.
OK. And there is more to it than that. Intent. I am an honest Deist, as in I know what that it is and believe it. Opposed to someone who is a theist and just doesn't go to church.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:03
^ Why do you believe? Like TJ said, I might as well say that the Universe was created by dolphins. But why should I do so - and why should I have any desire to defend this belief? It's unfalsifiable, and therefore also logically indefensible. There is nothing to defend, because the belief doesn't mean anything.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:05
jampa17 wrote:
And many Atheists are more Theist in the way they worship science and follows the "truth"... it's a matter of points of view Mike you know... I know you will argue that but there's no difference, according to your simplistic points of view that somebody who believes in God but "doesn't go to church is almost an Atheist". That's unaccurate to say the least. If he believes in God, then he canīt be an Atheist. Simple...
Let's say that I define the cosmos as "God", and I firmly believe in it. What would that make me?
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67444
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:06
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
jampa17 wrote:
And many Atheists are more Theist in the way they worship science and follows the "truth"... it's a matter of points of view Mike you know... I know you will argue that but there's no difference, according to your simplistic points of view that somebody who believes in God but "doesn't go to church is almost an Atheist". That's unaccurate to say the least. If he believes in God, then he canīt be an Atheist. Simple...
Let's say that I define the cosmos as "God", and I firmly believe in it. What would that make me?
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:18
Dean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
You're basically saying "I don't like the guy, so I won't listen to anything he says". I just don't see how that could be seen as a sensible position from any perspective.
Honestly? You are a better man than I then Mike, because if he sat next to me on the bus I'd get off at the next stop. If anyone spoke to me in that manner and tone I would simply turn my back and refuse to listen to them - that is a perfectly sensible, and very reasonable, position from my perspective.
You watched 44 seconds of the video ... I just think that this qualifies as a knee-jerk reaction. It's your prerogative to not watch the video, I just don't think it's a sensible choice. I also watched the video again and it just so happens that about one minute into it the tone changes.
BTW: TJ loves to provoke. Like it or not, but he's one of the most popular YouTube "vloggers".
Maybe you'll you risk another 44 seconds of your time - or maybe others will:
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:20
jampa17 wrote:
And many Atheists are more Theist in the way they worship science and follows the "truth"... it's a matter of points of view Mike you know... I know you will argue that but there's no difference, according to your simplistic points of view that somebody who believes in God but "doesn't go to church is almost an Atheist". That's unaccurate to say the least. If he believes in God, then he canīt be an Atheist. Simple...
I think we can argue that Atheists do not worship science and do not follow the "truth" until we are blue in the face and it will not get us anywhere. Science is a tool, not an end result; the "truth" is not an absolute but an ideal. No scientist will ever say they have the "truth", what they have is something that is an approximation of the truth - something that holds true for all known data perhaps, but they know that because they do not have all the data, somewhere out there is a piece of data that may show the model to be inaccurate and that more refinement is needed to explain the new data. The new data may even result in the old model being discarded and a new one devised, but it still will not be "the truth". This does not bother a scientist, because it is part of the process, they know it and expect it.
Science is not Atheism because fortunately I think most Theists follow this process too - they adapt their models to fit new data, just as Ivan has show in this thread. It is the intransigent fundamentalists who chose to ignore the new data that causes the friction that Atheists kick against.
Applying Theist thinking to Atheism is an inaccurate way of looking at it - just as applying Atheist thinking to Theism is an inaccurate way of analysing Theism. If you cannot apply logic and reason to Theism, then by inferance, you cannot apply belief and worship to Atheism. Atheism is not the direct opposite of Theism, it is the absence of Theism.
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:25
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Dean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
You're basically saying "I don't like the guy, so I won't listen to anything he says". I just don't see how that could be seen as a sensible position from any perspective.
Honestly? You are a better man than I then Mike, because if he sat next to me on the bus I'd get off at the next stop. If anyone spoke to me in that manner and tone I would simply turn my back and refuse to listen to them - that is a perfectly sensible, and very reasonable, position from my perspective.
You watched 44 seconds of the video ... I just think that this qualifies as a knee-jerk reaction. It's your prerogative to not watch the video, I just don't think it's a sensible choice. I also watched the video again and it just so happens that about one minute into it the tone changes.
BTW: TJ loves to provoke. Like it or not, but he's one of the most popular YouTube "vloggers".
I watched the whole video, and in addition to finding the poster a rude, insulting, unpleasant, condescending jerk, I didn't think any of his arguments were particularly convincing.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:28
Vompatti wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
jampa17 wrote:
And many Atheists are more Theist in the way they worship science and follows the "truth"... it's a matter of points of view Mike you know... I know you will argue that but there's no difference, according to your simplistic points of view that somebody who believes in God but "doesn't go to church is almost an Atheist". That's unaccurate to say the least. If he believes in God, then he canīt be an Atheist. Simple...
Let's say that I define the cosmos as "God", and I firmly believe in it. What would that make me?
Pantheist?
Of course I know that term, but I was rather interested in what that would make me in jampa's eyes.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:30
thellama73 wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Dean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
You're basically saying "I don't like the guy, so I won't listen to anything he says". I just don't see how that could be seen as a sensible position from any perspective.
Honestly? You are a better man than I then Mike, because if he sat next to me on the bus I'd get off at the next stop. If anyone spoke to me in that manner and tone I would simply turn my back and refuse to listen to them - that is a perfectly sensible, and very reasonable, position from my perspective.
You watched 44 seconds of the video ... I just think that this qualifies as a knee-jerk reaction. It's your prerogative to not watch the video, I just don't think it's a sensible choice. I also watched the video again and it just so happens that about one minute into it the tone changes.
BTW: TJ loves to provoke. Like it or not, but he's one of the most popular YouTube "vloggers".
I watched the whole video, and in addition to finding the poster a rude, insulting, unpleasant, condescending jerk, I didn't think any of his arguments were particularly convincing.
You're already proving one of his claims.
Seriously, can't you at least give one particular example of one of his arguments that you didn't find convincing, and why? It would make your post infinitely more meaningful.
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:36
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Dean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
You're basically saying "I don't like the guy, so I won't listen to anything he says". I just don't see how that could be seen as a sensible position from any perspective.
Honestly? You are a better man than I then Mike, because if he sat next to me on the bus I'd get off at the next stop. If anyone spoke to me in that manner and tone I would simply turn my back and refuse to listen to them - that is a perfectly sensible, and very reasonable, position from my perspective.
You watched 44 seconds of the video ... I just think that this qualifies as a knee-jerk reaction. It's your prerogative to not watch the video, I just don't think it's a sensible choice. I also watched the video again and it just so happens that about one minute into it the tone changes.
BTW: TJ loves to provoke. Like it or not, but he's one of the most popular YouTube "vloggers".
I watched the whole video, and in addition to finding the poster a rude, insulting, unpleasant, condescending jerk, I didn't think any of his arguments were particularly convincing.
You're already proving one of his claims.
Seriously, can't you at least give one particular example of one of his arguments that you didn't find convincing, and why? It would make your post infinitely more meaningful.
I didn't give an example, because he didn't really make any arguments, just blanket statements that we're supposed to take as fact. "Number one: there is no god. (citation needed) Number two: if there is a god, it's almost certainly not the Christian god (citation needed)..." Also, he said "it's not hard to disprove Christianity" yet I didn't see anything in his video that DID disprove it.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:43
^ He is making the point about the earth being round instead of flat. Of course you can choose to ignore it and/or come up with an apology (defense) of why it's no big deal that the Bible makes such a blatantly claim about the world.
I don't agree with Dean when he says that the tools of science can not be applied to religion. As long as you are willing to make exceptions (and excuses) for religious claims, of course you will not be able to understand the Atheist position. I hope though that you can at least see that you are making these exceptions.
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:55
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Dean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
You're basically saying "I don't like the guy, so I won't listen to anything he says". I just don't see how that could be seen as a sensible position from any perspective.
Honestly? You are a better man than I then Mike, because if he sat next to me on the bus I'd get off at the next stop. If anyone spoke to me in that manner and tone I would simply turn my back and refuse to listen to them - that is a perfectly sensible, and very reasonable, position from my perspective.
You watched 44 seconds of the video ... I just think that this qualifies as a knee-jerk reaction. It's your prerogative to not watch the video, I just don't think it's a sensible choice. I also watched the video again and it just so happens that about one minute into it the tone changes.
BTW: TJ loves to provoke. Like it or not, but he's one of the most popular YouTube "vloggers".
I watched the whole video, and in addition to finding the poster a rude, insulting, unpleasant, condescending jerk, I didn't think any of his arguments were particularly convincing.
You're already proving one of his claims.
Seriously, can't you at least give one particular example of one of his arguments that you didn't find convincing, and why? It would make your post infinitely more meaningful.
I've seen it and I'll answer that with just two points.
The idea that religion has done more harm than good and is therefore a bad thing is fatuous. I can assert with the same validity the same thing about alcohol, cigarettes, strong political beliefs, industrialisation, cake, overpopulation, globalism, the British empire, Cornish nationalism, Israel, oil, music... given the entirely non-specific way it is asserted, it's a meaningless statement.
The notion that believing in a god and an afterlife makes you care less about the world we live in is simply wrong (if I didn't believe in a god, I'd very likely end up being some variety of existentialist or nihilist and I think either of those perspectives would leave me more apathetic to the rest of the world than I currently am).
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:55
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Dean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
You're basically saying "I don't like the guy, so I won't listen to anything he says". I just don't see how that could be seen as a sensible position from any perspective.
Honestly? You are a better man than I then Mike, because if he sat next to me on the bus I'd get off at the next stop. If anyone spoke to me in that manner and tone I would simply turn my back and refuse to listen to them - that is a perfectly sensible, and very reasonable, position from my perspective.
You watched 44 seconds of the video ... I just think that this qualifies as a knee-jerk reaction. It's your prerogative to not watch the video, I just don't think it's a sensible choice. I also watched the video again and it just so happens that about one minute into it the tone changes.
It doesn't matter what happened at 60 seconds in - he'd lost his desired audience at 45 seconds - all that remained were the "hell, yeah" brigade and he was preaching to the choir. If he wants to reach people whose opinions he could change, rather than those who already agreed with him, then he shouldn't start with that in-your-face nutter-on-the-bus tone. IMO.
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
BTW: TJ loves to provoke. Like it or not, but he's one of the most popular YouTube "vloggers".
Maybe you'll you risk another 44 seconds of your time - or maybe others will:
::snip::
Meh - I had that argument with you months ago, and less offensively and hopefully with less specious and more accurate claims. The video only goes to reinforce my earlier comment about I'd feel like arguing against him even if I agreed with his view (which in this case, in the main I do)
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: August 09 2010 at 14:01
Dean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Dean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
You're basically saying "I don't like the guy, so I won't listen to anything he says". I just don't see how that could be seen as a sensible position from any perspective.
Honestly? You are a better man than I then Mike, because if he sat next to me on the bus I'd get off at the next stop. If anyone spoke to me in that manner and tone I would simply turn my back and refuse to listen to them - that is a perfectly sensible, and very reasonable, position from my perspective.
You watched 44 seconds of the video ... I just think that this qualifies as a knee-jerk reaction. It's your prerogative to not watch the video, I just don't think it's a sensible choice. I also watched the video again and it just so happens that about one minute into it the tone changes.
It doesn't matter what happened at 60 seconds in - he'd lost his desired audience at 45 seconds - all that remained were the "hell, yeah" brigade and he was preaching to the choir. If he wants to reach people whose opinions he could change, rather than those who already agreed with him, then he shouldn't start with that in-your-face nutter-on-the-bus tone. IMO.
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
BTW: TJ loves to provoke. Like it or not, but he's one of the most popular YouTube "vloggers".
Maybe you'll you risk another 44 seconds of your time - or maybe others will:
::snip::
Meh - I had that argument with you months ago, and less offensively and hopefully with less specious and more accurate claims. The video only goes to reinforce my earlier comment about I'd feel like arguing against him even if I agreed with his view (which in this case, in the main I do)
He's certainly not trying to "get" the political correct guys.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
This page was generated in 0.393 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?
Topic Options
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
